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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 4:52:20 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation.
I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun.
I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun.
And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD.
It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is.
What am I missing?
Freon
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DaveJavu
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Post by DaveJavu on May 8, 2024 8:10:23 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon For all I understand it's not so much about appeal as it is about scare. Jesus was quite good at putting the scare in people. I can't count the number of Christians I've heard say: "we use harsh terms because you're risking eternal damnation if you don't do this." Jesus was quite good at describing and at threatening the incredulous with the eternal torments of hell. He was not so good at getting his followers to, well, follow simple rules of conduct as it is often hard to tell a Christian by his deeds and general demeanor. People who think of themselves as good christians exhibit the crudest and harshest of manners. They often use Jesus mostly, if not exclusively, as a pretext to judge others and condemn "their sinful ways", not even bothering to make sure that whatever they're "denouncing" is even mentioned as bad in the scripture. Zealots like Jasmine and monster fuck are here to show us that "being Christian" means nothing in terms of boundaries. |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 13:37:08 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon For all I understand it's not so much about appeal as it is about scare. Jesus was quite good at putting the scare in people. I can't count the number of Christians I've heard say: "we use harsh terms because you're risking eternal damnation if you don't do this." Jesus was quite good at describing and at threatening the incredulous with the eternal torments of hell. He was not so good at getting his followers to, well, follow simple rules of conduct as it is often hard to tell a Christian by his deeds and general demeanor. People who think of themselves as good christians exhibit the crudest and harshest of manners. They often use Jesus mostly, if not exclusively, as a pretext to judge others and condemn "their sinful ways", not even bothering to make sure that whatever they're "denouncing" is even mentioned as bad in the scripture. Zealots like Jasmine and monster fuck are here to show us that "being Christian" means nothing in terms of boundaries. Yeah, have to agree on your examples, but in defense of 'Christians', meaning Christians in name, but not religiously so, I've lived among them my whole life, and in general, very good people. Why is it when they go devout, they go evil? And EVERY one of them believes they are the definition of a 'good' Christian, and that all other flavors of Christian are the wrong one. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 8, 2024 15:47:02 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon You don't really care to know. You really want to buttress your own preexisting presumptions about what Christianity is. Hence your own complication about translation issues ("Lord vs. LORD"). It's not confusing. It's not complicated. You'd like it to be. |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 17:24:33 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon You don't really care to know. You really want to buttress your own preexisting presumptions about what Christianity is. Hence your own complication about translation issues ("Lord vs. LORD"). It's not confusing. It's not complicated. You'd like it to be. I want a simple explanation, and you had your opportunity to provide one. Now I am asking others who might not be as narrow in their view. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 8, 2024 17:37:53 GMT
You don't really care to know. You really want to buttress your own preexisting presumptions about what Christianity is. Hence your own complication about translation issues ("Lord vs. LORD"). It's not confusing. It's not complicated. You'd like it to be. I want a simple explanation, and you had your opportunity to provide one. Now I am asking others who might not be as narrow in their view. Freon Would you like a simple (not simplistic) explanation? I can give you one, if you want. You've never asked for one before. You've nitpicked about details... God has a purpose for humanity...to rule/steward the physical universe in partnership with him. Given our propensity to screw up our opportunity/responsibility, he came in person to open the way and show the way...the True Israel, the true Image of God. Through his self-sacrificial death, he overcame death and the natural human proclivity towards self-destruction, and in complete partnership with him, we have the opportunity to participate in the summum bonum—in him (and only in him) we find out true identity, vocation, purpose, value, etc. |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 18:03:38 GMT
I want a simple explanation, and you had your opportunity to provide one. Now I am asking others who might not be as narrow in their view. Freon Would you like a simple (not simplistic) explanation? I can give you one, if you want. You've never asked for one before. You've nitpicked about details... God has a purpose for humanity...to rule/steward the physical universe in partnership with him. Given our propensity to screw up our opportunity/responsibility, he came in person to open the way and show the way...the True Israel, the true Image of God. Through his self-sacrificial death, he overcame death and the natural human proclivity towards self-destruction, and in complete partnership with him, we have the opportunity to participate in the summum bonum—in him (and only in him) we find out true identity, vocation, purpose, value, etc. And...none of that word salad answers my question. I think you are simply too close to the subject matter to provide a view that is digestible to a non-Christian. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 8, 2024 18:12:36 GMT
Would you like a simple (not simplistic) explanation? I can give you one, if you want. You've never asked for one before. You've nitpicked about details... God has a purpose for humanity...to rule/steward the physical universe in partnership with him. Given our propensity to screw up our opportunity/responsibility, he came in person to open the way and show the way...the True Israel, the true Image of God. Through his self-sacrificial death, he overcame death and the natural human proclivity towards self-destruction, and in complete partnership with him, we have the opportunity to participate in the summum bonum—in him (and only in him) we find out true identity, vocation, purpose, value, etc. And...none of that word salad answers my question. I think you are simply too close to the subject matter to provide a view that is digestible to a non-Christian. Freon Wow. That's "word salad" that's too difficult to understand? What if I said, "He died for your sins so you could be in relationship with God?" Is that better? |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 18:24:16 GMT
And...none of that word salad answers my question. I think you are simply too close to the subject matter to provide a view that is digestible to a non-Christian. Freon Wow. That's "word salad" that's too difficult to understand? What if I said, "He died for your sins so you could be in relationship with God?" Is that better? That's the branding. Doesn't really cover the appeal. If I convert, what must I do, IN PRACTICE, to demonstrate that belief. What are the benefits in my life (and death) for doing so? What are the consequences if I don't? What is the minimal total scope of beliefs I must adopt, for ANY flavor of Christianity, to be considered part of the collective? If you cannot answer these questions simply, then you do not know the answers, or they are specific to your flavor of Christianity alone. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 8, 2024 20:07:07 GMT
Wow. That's "word salad" that's too difficult to understand? What if I said, "He died for your sins so you could be in relationship with God?" Is that better? That's the branding. Doesn't really cover the appeal. If I convert, what must I do, IN PRACTICE, to demonstrate that belief. What are the benefits in my life (and death) for doing so? What are the consequences if I don't? What is the minimal total scope of beliefs I must adopt, for ANY flavor of Christianity, to be considered part of the collective? If you cannot answer these questions simply, then you do not know the answers, or they are specific to your flavor of Christianity alone. Freon So...you want simple...but not too simple. What do you believe in and what do you do in practice to demonstrate that belief? E.g., I believe in a friend of mine who is a CEO, so I demonstrate that belief by buying stock in his company. |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 20:19:12 GMT
That's the branding. Doesn't really cover the appeal. If I convert, what must I do, IN PRACTICE, to demonstrate that belief. What are the benefits in my life (and death) for doing so? What are the consequences if I don't? What is the minimal total scope of beliefs I must adopt, for ANY flavor of Christianity, to be considered part of the collective? If you cannot answer these questions simply, then you do not know the answers, or they are specific to your flavor of Christianity alone. Freon So...you want simple...but not too simple. What do you believe in and what do you do in practice to demonstrate that belief? E.g., I believe in a friend of mine who is a CEO, so I demonstrate that belief by buying stock in his company. Answering my questions with questions? Sigh. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 8, 2024 20:20:03 GMT
So...you want simple...but not too simple. What do you believe in and what do you do in practice to demonstrate that belief? E.g., I believe in a friend of mine who is a CEO, so I demonstrate that belief by buying stock in his company. Answering my questions with questions? Sigh. Freon Isn't that the Jewish way? 😉 |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 20:47:20 GMT
Answering my questions with questions? Sigh. Freon Isn't that the Jewish way? 😉 Is that supposed to be antisemitic? Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 8, 2024 21:21:50 GMT
Isn't that the Jewish way? 😉 Is that supposed to be antisemitic? Freon Why would it be? Was Socrates antisemitic? |
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Post by freonbale on May 8, 2024 21:35:07 GMT
Is that supposed to be antisemitic? Freon Why would it be? Was Socrates antisemitic? I have to decide whether I let you continue this game, Mercy. It's tempting. I do enjoy your attempts at controlling the convo. But I really want an answer to my questions, so unless you are capable of answering like a normal human being, I'm not really interested in any distractions to this thread. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 9, 2024 1:20:32 GMT
Why would it be? Was Socrates antisemitic? I have to decide whether I let you continue this game, Mercy. It's tempting. I do enjoy your attempts at controlling the convo. But I really want an answer to my questions, so unless you are capable of answering like a normal human being, I'm not really interested in any distractions to this thread. Freon Well, I'm not sure how to thread the needle between "too complex for you" and "too simple for you." What exactly are the parameters you're looking for? |
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Post by freonbale on May 9, 2024 1:55:28 GMT
I have to decide whether I let you continue this game, Mercy. It's tempting. I do enjoy your attempts at controlling the convo. But I really want an answer to my questions, so unless you are capable of answering like a normal human being, I'm not really interested in any distractions to this thread. Freon Well, I'm not sure how to thread the needle between "too complex for you" and "too simple for you." What exactly are the parameters you're looking for? I laid out the questions pretty clearly a few posts ago. I would have expected a reasonable response would have taken each, one-by-one, and attempted to answer them in a way someone without your education would understand. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 9, 2024 2:05:17 GMT
Well, I'm not sure how to thread the needle between "too complex for you" and "too simple for you." What exactly are the parameters you're looking for? I laid out the questions pretty clearly a few posts ago. I would have expected a reasonable response would have taken each, one-by-one, and attempted to answer them in a way someone without your education would understand. Freon
Live in obedience to Jesus...so...do what he said and do what he says. What are the benefits in my life (and death) for doing so?The benefits are identity, meaning, and purpose...living as who you were created to be...now, and ultimately forever. What are the consequences if I don't?Existential suffering, fumbling for identity, meaning, and purpose. Living contrary to whom you created to be...a kind of "disjointed existence." Not every Christian would agree with me on the following, but ultimately, a merciful end to your existence. What is the minimal total scope of beliefs I must adopt, for ANY flavor of Christianity, to be considered part of the collective?An odd question...a "not even wrong question." Imagine asking that at your wedding..."what is the minimum I must believe and do in order to get into this marriage thing with you?" |
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Post by freonbale on May 9, 2024 2:19:15 GMT
I laid out the questions pretty clearly a few posts ago. I would have expected a reasonable response would have taken each, one-by-one, and attempted to answer them in a way someone without your education would understand. Freon
Live in obedience to Jesus...so...do what he said and do what he says. What are the benefits in my life (and death) for doing so?The benefits are identity, meaning, and purpose...living as who you were created to be...now, and ultimately forever. What are the consequences if I don't?Existential suffering, fumbling for identity, meaning, and purpose. Living contrary to whom you created to be...a kind of "disjointed existence." Not every Christian would agree with me on the following, but ultimately, a merciful end to your existence. What is the minimal total scope of beliefs I must adopt, for ANY flavor of Christianity, to be considered part of the collective?An odd question...a "not even wrong question." Imagine asking that at your wedding..."what is the minimum I must believe and do in order to get into this marriage thing with you?" I would have no issue answering that last question. Are you married? If yes, then you should know too. 'Live in obedience to Jesus' does not really tell me anything. It's a tautology. You demonstrate your belief by doing what Jesus wants you to do, except you are not telling me what he wants me to do. And that is what I am asking. Ok, benefits. Identity. You mean I get to call myself a Christian or do you mean something else? Meaning. So you are saying that Christianity provides MORE meaning, or meaning, where there was none. Purpose. This one sounds like 'meaning' to me. No? And the consequences are a threat, it sounds like. No? If not a threat, then the state people are in when looking for Christianity. This whole, 'whom you created to be', which you mentioned twice, is where you start getting preachy. I would appreciate in these discussions, if you lay off the preachiness. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 9, 2024 12:47:33 GMT
If I convert, what must I do, IN PRACTICE, to demonstrate that belief?
Live in obedience to Jesus...so...do what he said and do what he says. What are the benefits in my life (and death) for doing so?The benefits are identity, meaning, and purpose...living as who you were created to be...now, and ultimately forever. What are the consequences if I don't?Existential suffering, fumbling for identity, meaning, and purpose. Living contrary to whom you created to be...a kind of "disjointed existence." Not every Christian would agree with me on the following, but ultimately, a merciful end to your existence. What is the minimal total scope of beliefs I must adopt, for ANY flavor of Christianity, to be considered part of the collective?An odd question...a "not even wrong question." Imagine asking that at your wedding..."what is the minimum I must believe and do in order to get into this marriage thing with you?" I would have no issue answering that last question. Are you married? If yes, then you should know too. 'Live in obedience to Jesus' does not really tell me anything. It's a tautology. You demonstrate your belief by doing what Jesus wants you to do, except you are not telling me what he wants me to do. And that is what I am asking. Ok, benefits. Identity. You mean I get to call myself a Christian or do you mean something else? Meaning. So you are saying that Christianity provides MORE meaning, or meaning, where there was none. Purpose. This one sounds like 'meaning' to me. No? And the consequences are a threat, it sounds like. No? If not a threat, then the state people are in when looking for Christianity. This whole, 'whom you created to be', which you mentioned twice, is where you start getting preachy. I would appreciate in these discussions, if you lay off the preachiness. Freon For someone who so proudly touts his scientific capacity, I’m surprised these are so difficult for you. Is it because the answers are not “concrete” enough? Are you looking for the “science experiment” of religion? |
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