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Post by HolyMoly on May 13, 2024 6:15:32 GMT
A nice, good looking, sensitive Jewish boy who's going places. What's not to like?
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Post by DaveJavu on May 13, 2024 13:03:29 GMT
A nice, good looking, sensitive Jewish boy who's going places. What's not to like? Sensitive? He cursed a tree!!! And then the tree died. |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 14:23:25 GMT
Same with "what is Christianity about." I want to know what you think. Big difference, Mercy. You are asking a question that is not based on opinion. There are passages in the Torah which answer it, and I do not have them memorized. You, who are supposedly educated in religious studies, are saying you do not know where or how to find those passages. Hence my suggestion of a web search. But my question is PURELY based on your opinions of why following Jesus is swell. There are no standard responses to the question, it is only something someone who personally went through the experience could answer. For someone who is now teaching in academia to not understand the basic difference between the two, is somewhat shocking, but I guess the rigor of obtaining a graduate degree in a liberal study is vastly easier than in the sciences. Alternatively, maybe your inability is because you have not had the experience which I am describing, and therefore CANNOT answer it. I have no idea which applies to you; ignorance of what you call the 'Old' testament, or ignorance of actually embracing Jesus. Freon You’re jumping to a conclusion that I am incapable of discovering information. Not at all. I’m asking you to justify your claim. That’s not unreasonable. You made an assertion. You seem unable or unwilling to back it up. This is, after all, a discussion board. I’ve seen those claims made. I haven’t seen a compelling or convincing justification for them. So I want to know what you think. But you seem to base your claim on “what you have been taught,” rather than coming to your own conclusions. Once again, the mirror. |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 16:39:15 GMT
Wow, pretty harsh there. As a Jewish person, were I to accept Jesus as the messiah, I would also have to view the Torah as in error. The Torah specifies the messiah has certain qualities that make them easy to identify, and states that after the messiah arrives, the world will change dramatically and obviously. Jesus did not have those qualifications, and the world did not change in any obvious or dramatic way. So purely based on evidence, I cannot accept Jesus as the savior. But none of that is what I'm asking, Paleo. You're just telling me I'm wrong. Ok, great, let's assume I am. What is my incentive to believe in Jesus? Why is Jesus so great? And if I did believe in Jesus, how would I need to behave? I'm already following the laws of the Torah, already a good person, already helping my neighbor and my community. What I see in here, are Christians who think other Christians aren't Christians, or are not Christian enough. Mercy doesn't even consider you a real Christian, and likely, you feel the same. So since you all get something different out of your Religion, since it does not seem to have any real standards, I'm curious what the lure is. WHY do you like being Christian? How does it make you good, and how does it make you happy? Freon That was a fascinating response by Paleo , and also very illuminating. It's rare that people are that open with their fanaticism. If he were born Muslim, say in Gaza, he would have been among the first to cross the border into Israel last October 7th. He exemplifies what makes these folks so damn dangerous. Never forget that people like these don't give a damn about Israel, or the Jewish people - it (and you) are merely means to an end for them. That was covered rather well in the documentaries I sent to you in PM. Some of them are quite open about their actual motives. You know he is just itching to use government power to make his flavor of Christianity the official religion of the United States. And the irony of him trying to make his Christianity the standard, is that other fanatics, like Mercy, are trying to do the same. It's not ME they are competing against, it's themselves. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 16:46:49 GMT
Yeah, have to agree on your examples, but in defense of 'Christians', meaning Christians in name, but not religiously so, I've lived among them my whole life, and in general, very good people. Why is it when they go devout, they go evil? And EVERY one of them believes they are the definition of a 'good' Christian, and that all other flavors of Christian are the wrong one. Freon There are very few well-meaning JudeoChrIslamic fundamentalists. I'm beginning to realize that there are two kinds of fundamentalists. The first are the ones like RWB, Lomelis, and Paleo, who consider the Bible a history book, and take it literally. Those types tend to be very low educated, and so the Bible becomes a viable explainer of the world. I can understand these people, and their conclusions. Don't agree, but makes sense why they are the way they are. It's the second kind of fundamentalist which I am now aware of, which I didn't really see until recently. Those like Mercy, who don't buy into the literal Bible, but still have the same fanaticism about their religion. They behave the same way as the fundamentalists, share the same goals, but see themselves as superior to them for various reasons, in Mercy's case, because of higher education. But it's all the same fanaticism. The end result is them wanting to control other people in the name of Jesus. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 16:48:38 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon Obviously, it's not about semantics. It's about salvation. Acceptance, repentance, salvation. A concept so inspired that even the Holiest of Holies would be born, live and die. The human experience when beheld as divine. It's radical. It's conceit. The belief that of all the matter that makes up the infinity of the Universe, we as humans are the single most important part. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 16:49:50 GMT
And...none of that word salad answers my question. I think you are simply too close to the subject matter to provide a view that is digestible to a non-Christian. Freon I was taught that money was not the root of evil as much as was the love of money. In much the same way, perhaps religion is not the problem as much as is clinging to religion rather than choosing and using any/all religion as a means toward liberation. Agreed and well put. Money and Religion are tools, and how we use them, and how we view them, is where evil arises. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 16:50:40 GMT
I have to decide whether I let you continue this game, Mercy. It's tempting. I do enjoy your attempts at controlling the convo. But I really want an answer to my questions, so unless you are capable of answering like a normal human being, I'm not really interested in any distractions to this thread. Freon Just answer the question: Was Socrates anti-Semitic? Well how the heck should I know, lol. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 16:54:26 GMT
Big difference, Mercy. You are asking a question that is not based on opinion. There are passages in the Torah which answer it, and I do not have them memorized. You, who are supposedly educated in religious studies, are saying you do not know where or how to find those passages. Hence my suggestion of a web search. But my question is PURELY based on your opinions of why following Jesus is swell. There are no standard responses to the question, it is only something someone who personally went through the experience could answer. For someone who is now teaching in academia to not understand the basic difference between the two, is somewhat shocking, but I guess the rigor of obtaining a graduate degree in a liberal study is vastly easier than in the sciences. Alternatively, maybe your inability is because you have not had the experience which I am describing, and therefore CANNOT answer it. I have no idea which applies to you; ignorance of what you call the 'Old' testament, or ignorance of actually embracing Jesus. Freon You’re jumping to a conclusion that I am incapable of discovering information. Not at all. I’m asking you to justify your claim. That’s not unreasonable. You made an assertion. You seem unable or unwilling to back it up. This is, after all, a discussion board. I’ve seen those claims made. I haven’t seen a compelling or convincing justification for them. So I want to know what you think. But you seem to base your claim on “what you have been taught,” rather than coming to your own conclusions. Once again, the mirror. If you have already seen the Torah portions that cover, explicitly, how we will identify the messiah upon arrival, and you still disagree with them, then nothing I can show you will change that. Nor am I trying to. I was asked why I do not subscribe to Jesus as messiah, and I said why. But the point of this thread, was/is/will always be, to find out what you Jesus lovers find so appealing about vieing Jesus as messiah, when believing in G-d, sans Jesus, seems to accomplish the same goal. Since it does not, for you, my question is why. What is the gap you are trying to fill? And you have not answered that question. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 18:45:12 GMT
Obviously, it's not about semantics. It's about salvation. Acceptance, repentance, salvation. A concept so inspired that even the Holiest of Holies would be born, live and die. The human experience when beheld as divine. It's radical. It's conceit. The belief that of all the matter that makes up the infinity of the Universe, we as humans are the single most important part. Freon Certainly any scientist should recognize that we are the most complex part. That we know of. |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 18:46:01 GMT
You’re jumping to a conclusion that I am incapable of discovering information. Not at all. I’m asking you to justify your claim. That’s not unreasonable. You made an assertion. You seem unable or unwilling to back it up. This is, after all, a discussion board. I’ve seen those claims made. I haven’t seen a compelling or convincing justification for them. So I want to know what you think. But you seem to base your claim on “what you have been taught,” rather than coming to your own conclusions. Once again, the mirror. If you have already seen the Torah portions that cover, explicitly, how we will identify the messiah upon arrival, and you still disagree with them, then nothing I can show you will change that. Nor am I trying to. I was asked why I do not subscribe to Jesus as messiah, and I said why. But the point of this thread, was/is/will always be, to find out what you Jesus lovers find so appealing about vieing Jesus as messiah, when believing in G-d, sans Jesus, seems to accomplish the same goal. Since it does not, for you, my question is why. What is the gap you are trying to fill? And you have not answered that question. Freon Jesus, as the human embodiment of G-d, clarifies G-d's intent and fulfills his purposes. |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 18:52:40 GMT
It's conceit. The belief that of all the matter that makes up the infinity of the Universe, we as humans are the single most important part. Freon Certainly any scientist should recognize that we are the most complex part. That we know of. Not at all, actually. I would be shocked if that was the view of other scientists. Life is complex, but humans are nothing special in terms of how we function. We are as complex as any other animal. But the MOST complex of any other process in nature? That's INCREDIBLY silly to say. Naive, to an extreme. That view, Mercy, shows how truly little you understand how the physical world works. Freon |
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thor
Legend
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Post by thor on May 13, 2024 18:53:01 GMT
There are very few well-meaning JudeoChrIslamic fundamentalists. I'm beginning to realize that there are two kinds of fundamentalists. The first are the ones like RWB, Lomelis, and Paleo, who consider the Bible a history book, and take it literally. Those types tend to be very low educated, and so the Bible becomes a viable explainer of the world. I can understand these people, and their conclusions. Don't agree, but makes sense why they are the way they are. It's the second kind of fundamentalist which I am now aware of, which I didn't really see until recently. Those like Mercy, who don't buy into the literal Bible, but still have the same fanaticism about their religion. They behave the same way as the fundamentalists, share the same goals, but see themselves as superior to them for various reasons, in Mercy's case, because of higher education. But it's all the same fanaticism. The end result is them wanting to control other people in the name of Jesus. Freon To be fair, I believe Lomelis (different forum, so I will defer from my per name for him) is an atheist. RR isn't (I think this might have been who you were referring to), but he has never struck me as a full-on Fundy. Here is a link to a former IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist), and later Evangelical Preacher who left the faith and later became an atheist/agnostic. He can give you a perspective on some of this: brucegerencser.net/This is an interesting essay: brucegerencser.net/2022/07/is-there-a-distinction-between-evangelicals-and-fundamentalists/ |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 19:43:33 GMT
I'm beginning to realize that there are two kinds of fundamentalists. The first are the ones like RWB, Lomelis, and Paleo, who consider the Bible a history book, and take it literally. Those types tend to be very low educated, and so the Bible becomes a viable explainer of the world. I can understand these people, and their conclusions. Don't agree, but makes sense why they are the way they are. It's the second kind of fundamentalist which I am now aware of, which I didn't really see until recently. Those like Mercy, who don't buy into the literal Bible, but still have the same fanaticism about their religion. They behave the same way as the fundamentalists, share the same goals, but see themselves as superior to them for various reasons, in Mercy's case, because of higher education. But it's all the same fanaticism. The end result is them wanting to control other people in the name of Jesus. Freon To be fair, I believe Lomelis (different forum, so I will defer from my per name for him) is an atheist. RR isn't (I think this might have been who you were referring to), but he has never struck me as a full-on Fundy. Here is a link to a former IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist), and later Evangelical Preacher who left the faith and later became an atheist/agnostic. He can give you a perspective on some of this: brucegerencser.net/This is an interesting essay: brucegerencser.net/2022/07/is-there-a-distinction-between-evangelicals-and-fundamentalists/The point I'm making is that you do not have to believe in the Bible literally, to have the life views of a fundamentalist. Mercy, and I guess Lomelis, have those views even though they are NOT Bible literalists. And I can understand why the Bible literalists have those life views, but how those who are not Bible literalists can, is a mystery to me. Or, rather, the explanation is obvious, but I'm hoping it isn't as simple as that. Freon |
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Post by HolyMoly on May 13, 2024 20:21:32 GMT
A nice, good looking, sensitive Jewish boy who's going places. What's not to like? Sensitive? He cursed a tree!!! And then the tree died. What can I say. Even Jesus nods. |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 20:30:59 GMT
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 20:32:03 GMT
To be fair, I believe Lomelis (different forum, so I will defer from my per name for him) is an atheist. RR isn't (I think this might have been who you were referring to), but he has never struck me as a full-on Fundy. Here is a link to a former IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist), and later Evangelical Preacher who left the faith and later became an atheist/agnostic. He can give you a perspective on some of this: brucegerencser.net/This is an interesting essay: brucegerencser.net/2022/07/is-there-a-distinction-between-evangelicals-and-fundamentalists/The point I'm making is that you do not have to believe in the Bible literally, to have the life views of a fundamentalist. Mercy, and I guess Lomelis, have those views even though they are NOT Bible literalists. And I can understand why the Bible literalists have those life views, but how those who are not Bible literalists can, is a mystery to me. Or, rather, the explanation is obvious, but I'm hoping it isn't as simple as that. Freon Says freonbale, who refuses to justify an assertion about Jesus as Messiah, because his opinion is "what he was always taught." |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 20:59:46 GMT
I stand by my statement. You can look up web sites to your heart's content, but you will remain naive. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 21:00:48 GMT
The point I'm making is that you do not have to believe in the Bible literally, to have the life views of a fundamentalist. Mercy, and I guess Lomelis, have those views even though they are NOT Bible literalists. And I can understand why the Bible literalists have those life views, but how those who are not Bible literalists can, is a mystery to me. Or, rather, the explanation is obvious, but I'm hoping it isn't as simple as that. Freon Says freonbale, who refuses to justify an assertion about Jesus as Messiah, because his opinion is "what he was always taught." I don't even understand what you just accused me of, lol. Instead of speaking Christian, can you please speak English. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 21:48:25 GMT
I stand by my statement. You can look up web sites to your heart's content, but you will remain naive. Freon Are you shocked? |
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