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Post by freonbale on May 9, 2024 13:41:03 GMT
I would have no issue answering that last question. Are you married? If yes, then you should know too. 'Live in obedience to Jesus' does not really tell me anything. It's a tautology. You demonstrate your belief by doing what Jesus wants you to do, except you are not telling me what he wants me to do. And that is what I am asking. Ok, benefits. Identity. You mean I get to call myself a Christian or do you mean something else? Meaning. So you are saying that Christianity provides MORE meaning, or meaning, where there was none. Purpose. This one sounds like 'meaning' to me. No? And the consequences are a threat, it sounds like. No? If not a threat, then the state people are in when looking for Christianity. This whole, 'whom you created to be', which you mentioned twice, is where you start getting preachy. I would appreciate in these discussions, if you lay off the preachiness. Freon For someone who so proudly touts his scientific capacity, I’m surprised these are so difficult for you. Is it because the answers are not “concrete” enough? Are you looking for the “science experiment” of religion? Your questions are irrelevant and an attempt to bait me. When will you learn that you are transparent to me? I have responded to your post with counter-questions. You have not answered them. Either answer them, or please refrain from participating in the discussion. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 10, 2024 0:07:29 GMT
For someone who so proudly touts his scientific capacity, I’m surprised these are so difficult for you. Is it because the answers are not “concrete” enough? Are you looking for the “science experiment” of religion? Your questions are irrelevant and an attempt to bait me. When will you learn that you are transparent to me? I have responded to your post with counter-questions. You have not answered them. Either answer them, or please refrain from participating in the discussion. Freon Ah, well, the baiting started with the first post. You're not interested in a discussion. |
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Post by freonbale on May 10, 2024 0:12:49 GMT
Your questions are irrelevant and an attempt to bait me. When will you learn that you are transparent to me? I have responded to your post with counter-questions. You have not answered them. Either answer them, or please refrain from participating in the discussion. Freon Ah, well, the baiting started with the first post. You're not interested in a discussion. You think I was unaware of your attempt at retribution from the other thread? You don't think I realized that by even creating this one, it would be bait to you? But while I knew you could not resist responding to this one, I still want my questions answered, and you are, apparently, incapable of doing so. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 10, 2024 0:17:48 GMT
Ah, well, the baiting started with the first post. You're not interested in a discussion. You think I was unaware of your attempt at retribution from the other thread? You don't think I realized that by even creating this one, it would be bait to you? But while I knew you could not resist responding to this one, I still want my questions answered, and you are, apparently, incapable of doing so. Freon No, I'm pretty sure I answered fine. I did notice that you abandoned the other thread (what, again, do you mean by "believing in God"?). That's fine. But you have some kind of arcane metric as to what kind of answer(s) you want, and you seem reticent to clarify. Thus, the only reasonable conclusion is that you're not really interested in the answers to the questions you asked. Kind of like someone asking what kind of consumption a new car takes, and when the salesman answers with miles/gallon or L/100km, the buyer says, No! I want to know how quickly it goes through windshield washer fluid! Well, the question is both impossible to answer and kind of irrelevant when it comes to the value of the car. Yup. That's what your questions are like. Christianity is about a relationship with God, and you can't treat that as some kind of reductive science experiment or set of policies any more than you can in a legitimate relationship with your wife. |
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Post by freonbale on May 10, 2024 1:14:42 GMT
You think I was unaware of your attempt at retribution from the other thread? You don't think I realized that by even creating this one, it would be bait to you? But while I knew you could not resist responding to this one, I still want my questions answered, and you are, apparently, incapable of doing so. Freon No, I'm pretty sure I answered fine. I did notice that you abandoned the other thread (what, again, do you mean by "believing in God"?). That's fine. But you have some kind of arcane metric as to what kind of answer(s) you want, and you seem reticent to clarify. Thus, the only reasonable conclusion is that you're not really interested in the answers to the questions you asked. Kind of like someone asking what kind of consumption a new car takes, and when the salesman answers with miles/gallon or L/100km, the buyer says, No! I want to know how quickly it goes through windshield washer fluid! Well, the question is both impossible to answer and kind of irrelevant when it comes to the value of the car. Yup. That's what your questions are like. Christianity is about a relationship with God, and you can't treat that as some kind of reductive science experiment or set of policies any more than you can in a legitimate relationship with your wife. Blah, blah, blah. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 10, 2024 1:18:08 GMT
No, I'm pretty sure I answered fine. I did notice that you abandoned the other thread (what, again, do you mean by "believing in God"?). That's fine. But you have some kind of arcane metric as to what kind of answer(s) you want, and you seem reticent to clarify. Thus, the only reasonable conclusion is that you're not really interested in the answers to the questions you asked. Kind of like someone asking what kind of consumption a new car takes, and when the salesman answers with miles/gallon or L/100km, the buyer says, No! I want to know how quickly it goes through windshield washer fluid! Well, the question is both impossible to answer and kind of irrelevant when it comes to the value of the car. Yup. That's what your questions are like. Christianity is about a relationship with God, and you can't treat that as some kind of reductive science experiment or set of policies any more than you can in a legitimate relationship with your wife. Blah, blah, blah. Freon works for you? Okay. |
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on May 12, 2024 19:52:00 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon The rejection of God's Son....THE Messiah.... is one of the saddest events in Jewish history. God's greatest gift ever and they turned Him away. In Jesus Christ, God finished the story that he started in the Old Testament, fulfilling his promise of the Messiah to the Jews as expressed by the ancient prophets. But the Jewish religious leaders of that time were determined to pick a "messiah" that fit THEIR ideas of a militant king that would destroy their enemies and they refused to accept that God would instead send the Messiah with a message of inclusiveness, love and salvation for everyone. God offered all of that through the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Hate to break it to you, but you're waiting in vain. There won't be any other "messiah" offered to the Jewish people because He's already arrived, whether you acknowledge it or not. Bluntly put, your religion still embraces just the unfinished, unfulfilled first half of God's story, while Christians know that God, through Jesus Christ, has already delivered, as Paul Harvey put it, "the rest of the story". It's pitiful that in your faith, you think God would just stop after making so many promises. Even sadder is that your ancestors missed the greatest news that God ever delivered to mankind, the joyous arrival of our Savior. And saddest of all, you and your people are still in denial. |
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Post by freonbale on May 12, 2024 22:14:04 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon The rejection of God's Son....THE Messiah.... is one of the saddest events in Jewish history. God's greatest gift ever and they turned Him away. In Jesus Christ, God finished the story that he started in the Old Testament, fulfilling his promise of the Messiah to the Jews as expressed by the ancient prophets. But the Jewish religious leaders of that time were determined to pick a "messiah" that fit THEIR ideas of a militant king that would destroy their enemies and they refused to accept that God would instead send the Messiah with a message of inclusiveness, love and salvation for everyone. God offered all of that through the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Hate to break it to you, but you're waiting in vain. There won't be any other "messiah" offered to the Jewish people because He's already arrived, whether you acknowledge it or not. Bluntly put, your religion still embraces just the unfinished, unfulfilled first half of God's story, while Christians know that God, through Jesus Christ, has already delivered, as Paul Harvey put it, "the rest of the story". It's pitiful that in your faith, you think God would just stop after making so many promises. Even sadder is that your ancestors missed the greatest news that God ever delivered to mankind, the joyous arrival of our Savior. And saddest of all, you and your people are still in denial. Wow, pretty harsh there. As a Jewish person, were I to accept Jesus as the messiah, I would also have to view the Torah as in error. The Torah specifies the messiah has certain qualities that make them easy to identify, and states that after the messiah arrives, the world will change dramatically and obviously. Jesus did not have those qualifications, and the world did not change in any obvious or dramatic way. So purely based on evidence, I cannot accept Jesus as the savior. But none of that is what I'm asking, Paleo. You're just telling me I'm wrong. Ok, great, let's assume I am. What is my incentive to believe in Jesus? Why is Jesus so great? And if I did believe in Jesus, how would I need to behave? I'm already following the laws of the Torah, already a good person, already helping my neighbor and my community. What I see in here, are Christians who think other Christians aren't Christians, or are not Christian enough. Mercy doesn't even consider you a real Christian, and likely, you feel the same. So since you all get something different out of your Religion, since it does not seem to have any real standards, I'm curious what the lure is. WHY do you like being Christian? How does it make you good, and how does it make you happy? Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 12, 2024 23:00:52 GMT
The rejection of God's Son....THE Messiah.... is one of the saddest events in Jewish history. God's greatest gift ever and they turned Him away. In Jesus Christ, God finished the story that he started in the Old Testament, fulfilling his promise of the Messiah to the Jews as expressed by the ancient prophets. But the Jewish religious leaders of that time were determined to pick a "messiah" that fit THEIR ideas of a militant king that would destroy their enemies and they refused to accept that God would instead send the Messiah with a message of inclusiveness, love and salvation for everyone. God offered all of that through the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Hate to break it to you, but you're waiting in vain. There won't be any other "messiah" offered to the Jewish people because He's already arrived, whether you acknowledge it or not. Bluntly put, your religion still embraces just the unfinished, unfulfilled first half of God's story, while Christians know that God, through Jesus Christ, has already delivered, as Paul Harvey put it, "the rest of the story". It's pitiful that in your faith, you think God would just stop after making so many promises. Even sadder is that your ancestors missed the greatest news that God ever delivered to mankind, the joyous arrival of our Savior. And saddest of all, you and your people are still in denial. Wow, pretty harsh there. As a Jewish person, were I to accept Jesus as the messiah, I would also have to view the Torah as in error. The Torah specifies the messiah has certain qualities that make them easy to identify, and states that after the messiah arrives, the world will change dramatically and obviously. Jesus did not have those qualifications, and the world did not change in any obvious or dramatic way. So purely based on evidence, I cannot accept Jesus as the savior. What are those qualifications? |
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Post by freonbale on May 12, 2024 23:48:24 GMT
Wow, pretty harsh there. As a Jewish person, were I to accept Jesus as the messiah, I would also have to view the Torah as in error. The Torah specifies the messiah has certain qualities that make them easy to identify, and states that after the messiah arrives, the world will change dramatically and obviously. Jesus did not have those qualifications, and the world did not change in any obvious or dramatic way. So purely based on evidence, I cannot accept Jesus as the savior. What are those qualifications? Literally hundreds of Jewish web sites out there to inform you. Google is your friend. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 13, 2024 1:01:37 GMT
What are those qualifications? Literally hundreds of Jewish web sites out there to inform you. Google is your friend. Freon Same with "what is Christianity about." I want to know what you think. |
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Post by freonbale on May 13, 2024 1:35:37 GMT
Literally hundreds of Jewish web sites out there to inform you. Google is your friend. Freon Same with "what is Christianity about." I want to know what you think. Big difference, Mercy. You are asking a question that is not based on opinion. There are passages in the Torah which answer it, and I do not have them memorized. You, who are supposedly educated in religious studies, are saying you do not know where or how to find those passages. Hence my suggestion of a web search. But my question is PURELY based on your opinions of why following Jesus is swell. There are no standard responses to the question, it is only something someone who personally went through the experience could answer. For someone who is now teaching in academia to not understand the basic difference between the two, is somewhat shocking, but I guess the rigor of obtaining a graduate degree in a liberal study is vastly easier than in the sciences. Alternatively, maybe your inability is because you have not had the experience which I am describing, and therefore CANNOT answer it. I have no idea which applies to you; ignorance of what you call the 'Old' testament, or ignorance of actually embracing Jesus. Freon |
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thor
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Post by thor on May 13, 2024 3:55:59 GMT
The rejection of God's Son....THE Messiah.... is one of the saddest events in Jewish history. God's greatest gift ever and they turned Him away. In Jesus Christ, God finished the story that he started in the Old Testament, fulfilling his promise of the Messiah to the Jews as expressed by the ancient prophets. But the Jewish religious leaders of that time were determined to pick a "messiah" that fit THEIR ideas of a militant king that would destroy their enemies and they refused to accept that God would instead send the Messiah with a message of inclusiveness, love and salvation for everyone. God offered all of that through the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Hate to break it to you, but you're waiting in vain. There won't be any other "messiah" offered to the Jewish people because He's already arrived, whether you acknowledge it or not. Bluntly put, your religion still embraces just the unfinished, unfulfilled first half of God's story, while Christians know that God, through Jesus Christ, has already delivered, as Paul Harvey put it, "the rest of the story". It's pitiful that in your faith, you think God would just stop after making so many promises. Even sadder is that your ancestors missed the greatest news that God ever delivered to mankind, the joyous arrival of our Savior. And saddest of all, you and your people are still in denial. Wow, pretty harsh there. As a Jewish person, were I to accept Jesus as the messiah, I would also have to view the Torah as in error. The Torah specifies the messiah has certain qualities that make them easy to identify, and states that after the messiah arrives, the world will change dramatically and obviously. Jesus did not have those qualifications, and the world did not change in any obvious or dramatic way. So purely based on evidence, I cannot accept Jesus as the savior. But none of that is what I'm asking, Paleo. You're just telling me I'm wrong. Ok, great, let's assume I am. What is my incentive to believe in Jesus? Why is Jesus so great? And if I did believe in Jesus, how would I need to behave? I'm already following the laws of the Torah, already a good person, already helping my neighbor and my community. What I see in here, are Christians who think other Christians aren't Christians, or are not Christian enough. Mercy doesn't even consider you a real Christian, and likely, you feel the same. So since you all get something different out of your Religion, since it does not seem to have any real standards, I'm curious what the lure is. WHY do you like being Christian? How does it make you good, and how does it make you happy? Freon That was a fascinating response by Paleo , and also very illuminating. It's rare that people are that open with their fanaticism. If he were born Muslim, say in Gaza, he would have been among the first to cross the border into Israel last October 7th. He exemplifies what makes these folks so damn dangerous. Never forget that people like these don't give a damn about Israel, or the Jewish people - it (and you) are merely means to an end for them. That was covered rather well in the documentaries I sent to you in PM. Some of them are quite open about their actual motives. You know he is just itching to use government power to make his flavor of Christianity the official religion of the United States. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:07:54 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon For all I understand it's not so much about appeal as it is about scare. Jesus was quite good at putting the scare in people. I can't count the number of Christians I've heard say: "we use harsh terms because you're risking eternal damnation if you don't do this." Jesus was quite good at describing and at threatening the incredulous with the eternal torments of hell. He was not so good at getting his followers to, well, follow simple rules of conduct as it is often hard to tell a Christian by his deeds and general demeanor. People who think of themselves as good christians exhibit the crudest and harshest of manners. They often use Jesus mostly, if not exclusively, as a pretext to judge others and condemn "their sinful ways", not even bothering to make sure that whatever they're "denouncing" is even mentioned as bad in the scripture. Zealots like Jasmine and monster fuck are here to show us that "being Christian" means nothing in terms of boundaries. A less accurate characterization of Jesus Christ I can hardly imagine. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:11:57 GMT
For all I understand it's not so much about appeal as it is about scare. Jesus was quite good at putting the scare in people. I can't count the number of Christians I've heard say: "we use harsh terms because you're risking eternal damnation if you don't do this." Jesus was quite good at describing and at threatening the incredulous with the eternal torments of hell. He was not so good at getting his followers to, well, follow simple rules of conduct as it is often hard to tell a Christian by his deeds and general demeanor. People who think of themselves as good christians exhibit the crudest and harshest of manners. They often use Jesus mostly, if not exclusively, as a pretext to judge others and condemn "their sinful ways", not even bothering to make sure that whatever they're "denouncing" is even mentioned as bad in the scripture. Zealots like Jasmine and monster fuck are here to show us that "being Christian" means nothing in terms of boundaries. Yeah, have to agree on your examples, but in defense of 'Christians', meaning Christians in name, but not religiously so, I've lived among them my whole life, and in general, very good people. Why is it when they go devout, they go evil? And EVERY one of them believes they are the definition of a 'good' Christian, and that all other flavors of Christian are the wrong one. Freon There are very few well-meaning JudeoChrIslamic fundamentalists. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:18:49 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon Obviously, it's not about semantics. It's about salvation. Acceptance, repentance, salvation. A concept so inspired that even the Holiest of Holies would be born, live and die. The human experience when beheld as divine. It's radical. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:24:52 GMT
Would you like a simple (not simplistic) explanation? I can give you one, if you want. You've never asked for one before. You've nitpicked about details... God has a purpose for humanity...to rule/steward the physical universe in partnership with him. Given our propensity to screw up our opportunity/responsibility, he came in person to open the way and show the way...the True Israel, the true Image of God. Through his self-sacrificial death, he overcame death and the natural human proclivity towards self-destruction, and in complete partnership with him, we have the opportunity to participate in the summum bonum—in him (and only in him) we find out true identity, vocation, purpose, value, etc. And...none of that word salad answers my question. I think you are simply too close to the subject matter to provide a view that is digestible to a non-Christian. Freon I was taught that money was not the root of evil as much as was the love of money. In much the same way, perhaps religion is not the problem as much as is clinging to religion rather than choosing and using any/all religion as a means toward liberation. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:26:29 GMT
Answering my questions with questions? Sigh. Freon Isn't that the Jewish way? 😉 You working the Catskills this summer? |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:28:39 GMT
Why would it be? Was Socrates antisemitic? I have to decide whether I let you continue this game, Mercy. It's tempting. I do enjoy your attempts at controlling the convo. But I really want an answer to my questions, so unless you are capable of answering like a normal human being, I'm not really interested in any distractions to this thread. Freon Just answer the question: Was Socrates anti-Semitic? |
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bama beau
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Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
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Post by bama beau on May 13, 2024 5:30:54 GMT
I just want to understand the appeal, and I'm not looking for a bookish explanation. I've been told that if you accept him, he becomes your master, which doesn't sound like too much fun. I've also been told that you if you don't follow his rules, you get to live in hell...., forever. Also not so much fun. And then there is this idea of Jesus AS Lord, instead of Jesus IS Lord, and Lord vs LORD. It's all a bit confusing. It's all a bit complicated. Judaism is MUCH simpler, so I'm curious to know what the appeal is. What am I missing? Freon The rejection of God's Son....THE Messiah.... is one of the saddest events in Jewish history. God's greatest gift ever and they turned Him away. In Jesus Christ, God finished the story that he started in the Old Testament, fulfilling his promise of the Messiah to the Jews as expressed by the ancient prophets. But the Jewish religious leaders of that time were determined to pick a "messiah" that fit THEIR ideas of a militant king that would destroy their enemies and they refused to accept that God would instead send the Messiah with a message of inclusiveness, love and salvation for everyone. God offered all of that through the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Hate to break it to you, but you're waiting in vain. There won't be any other "messiah" offered to the Jewish people because He's already arrived, whether you acknowledge it or not. Bluntly put, your religion still embraces just the unfinished, unfulfilled first half of God's story, while Christians know that God, through Jesus Christ, has already delivered, as Paul Harvey put it, "the rest of the story". It's pitiful that in your faith, you think God would just stop after making so many promises. Even sadder is that your ancestors missed the greatest news that God ever delivered to mankind, the joyous arrival of our Savior. And saddest of all, you and your people are still in denial. Free Palestine, brother. |
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