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Post by Mercy for All on May 14, 2024 15:25:30 GMT
You seem to want stories of personal experience, of which I have many, but I will not subject them to your mockery. Suffice it to say, my epistemological journey is informed by experiential and emotional tributaries in addition to intellect and reason. Arguably, these are thalwegs compared to conscious, rational endeavour. Thalwegs, great word! I was clear in the original post that I did not want an academic explanation. I wanted a personal one. From someone who actually went through the experience. If it takes a whole story to answer my question, I suppose that is fine. I'm not sure why it would, though, I'm just asking for an opinion. Freon For me, very generally speaking, the framework I grew up with (growing up in a Christian context) kind of fell apart in my young adult years. A couple of years of depression and aimlessness. I was still connected to my local church in participation. At a certain point, it was less a "coming back to what I grew up with" than it was coming to a rearrangement of those foundational pieces (with some of those pieces discarded). At the centre of it was a relational, experiential thread with God (again, through many different kinds of experiences). Over time, looking backwards, the meaning of the journey is clearer, despite the shifting of some pieces (and discarding of others) that used to seem essential. I know that's all really vague... |
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Post by freonbale on May 14, 2024 15:29:57 GMT
Thalwegs, great word! I was clear in the original post that I did not want an academic explanation. I wanted a personal one. From someone who actually went through the experience. If it takes a whole story to answer my question, I suppose that is fine. I'm not sure why it would, though, I'm just asking for an opinion. Freon For me, very generally speaking, the framework I grew up with (growing up in a Christian context) kind of fell apart in my young adult years. A couple of years of depression and aimlessness. I was still connected to my local church in participation. At a certain point, it was less a "coming back to what I grew up with" than it was coming to a rearrangement of those foundational pieces (with some of those pieces discarded). At the centre of it was a relational, experiential thread with God (again, through many different kinds of experiences). Over time, looking backwards, the meaning of the journey is clearer, despite the shifting of some pieces (and discarding of others) that used to seem essential. I know that's all really vague... With respect to the core question of my post, it sounds like you are saying you chose Jesus, in particular, because of familiarity to what you were raised with. It's not like you made a comparison to other options, and then chose Jesus. So I'm not sure you can actually answer my question. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 14, 2024 16:08:46 GMT
For me, very generally speaking, the framework I grew up with (growing up in a Christian context) kind of fell apart in my young adult years. A couple of years of depression and aimlessness. I was still connected to my local church in participation. At a certain point, it was less a "coming back to what I grew up with" than it was coming to a rearrangement of those foundational pieces (with some of those pieces discarded). At the centre of it was a relational, experiential thread with God (again, through many different kinds of experiences). Over time, looking backwards, the meaning of the journey is clearer, despite the shifting of some pieces (and discarding of others) that used to seem essential. I know that's all really vague... With respect to the core question of my post, it sounds like you are saying you chose Jesus, in particular, because of familiarity to what you were raised with. It's not like you made a comparison to other options, and then chose Jesus. So I'm not sure you can actually answer my question. Freon Actually, I kind of said the opposite. I wasn't doing "nothing" in those "fall apart years." The implication, though, that "people are only Christians if they are raised to be Christians" is countered by the new Christians in the church I attend, most of whom did not have a Christian background. |
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Post by freonbale on May 14, 2024 19:54:42 GMT
With respect to the core question of my post, it sounds like you are saying you chose Jesus, in particular, because of familiarity to what you were raised with. It's not like you made a comparison to other options, and then chose Jesus. So I'm not sure you can actually answer my question. Freon Actually, I kind of said the opposite. I wasn't doing "nothing" in those "fall apart years." The implication, though, that "people are only Christians if they are raised to be Christians" is countered by the new Christians in the church I attend, most of whom did not have a Christian background. That was not my point. Based on your post, the only salient points were that you were raised with Christianity, you went through a time where it was not part of your life, and you came back. The part of that I am interested in is why you came back to Jesus, in particular. What was it about Jesus being your savior, and not some other religion/savior, that was appealing. I'm not sure how many chances I can give you here to get to the core of this, Mercy. I'm not asking a difficult question. No education you have is going to help you answer it. It's personal. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 14, 2024 20:44:44 GMT
Actually, I kind of said the opposite. I wasn't doing "nothing" in those "fall apart years." The implication, though, that "people are only Christians if they are raised to be Christians" is countered by the new Christians in the church I attend, most of whom did not have a Christian background. That was not my point. Based on your post, the only salient points were that you were raised with Christianity, you went through a time where it was not part of your life, and you came back. The part of that I am interested in is why you came back to Jesus, in particular. What was it about Jesus being your savior, and not some other religion/savior, that was appealing. I'm not sure how many chances I can give you here to get to the core of this, Mercy. I'm not asking a difficult question. No education you have is going to help you answer it. It's personal. Freon No, I said: "At the centre of it was a relational, experiential thread with God (again, through many different kinds of experiences)." Why are you a practicing Jew, besides the fact that it is how you were raised? |
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Post by freonbale on May 14, 2024 21:00:27 GMT
That was not my point. Based on your post, the only salient points were that you were raised with Christianity, you went through a time where it was not part of your life, and you came back. The part of that I am interested in is why you came back to Jesus, in particular. What was it about Jesus being your savior, and not some other religion/savior, that was appealing. I'm not sure how many chances I can give you here to get to the core of this, Mercy. I'm not asking a difficult question. No education you have is going to help you answer it. It's personal. Freon No, I said: "At the centre of it was a relational, experiential thread with God (again, through many different kinds of experiences)." Why are you a practicing Jew, besides the fact that it is how you were raised? Look at your quote. Does it say what attracted you to Jesus, in particular? Because that continues to be my question. Flipping this around is not going to answer my question, so I do not see the point. If you wish to ask that elsewhere, I am happy to answer. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 14, 2024 21:57:09 GMT
No, I said: "At the centre of it was a relational, experiential thread with God (again, through many different kinds of experiences)." Why are you a practicing Jew, besides the fact that it is how you were raised? Look at your quote. Does it say what attracted you to Jesus, in particular? Because that continues to be my question. Flipping this around is not going to answer my question, so I do not see the point. If you wish to ask that elsewhere, I am happy to answer. Freon All right...so I guess implied in that "central, relational, experiential thread" was meaning, purpose, identity, conviction, truth, challenge & comfort (<-a tension there), etc. |
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Post by freonbale on May 14, 2024 22:33:13 GMT
Look at your quote. Does it say what attracted you to Jesus, in particular? Because that continues to be my question. Flipping this around is not going to answer my question, so I do not see the point. If you wish to ask that elsewhere, I am happy to answer. Freon All right...so I guess implied in that "central, relational, experiential thread" was meaning, purpose, identity, conviction, truth, challenge & comfort (<-a tension there), etc. You are speaking in vagaries, and I am asking you specifically. Why Jesus? What meaning? What purpose? What identity? What conviction? What truth? What challenge? What comfort? And I have to add another one, now. Why is it so difficult for you to answer these simple questions? The message you are sending me is that you are trying to sound 'deep', when there is nothing to really back that depth. What I expect you to say, should you choose to answer the questions above, will be standard Christian propaganda. Once again, not personal. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 15, 2024 0:26:37 GMT
All right...so I guess implied in that "central, relational, experiential thread" was meaning, purpose, identity, conviction, truth, challenge & comfort (<-a tension there), etc. You are speaking in vagaries, and I am asking you specifically. Why Jesus? What meaning? What purpose? What identity? What conviction? What truth? What challenge? What comfort? And I have to add another one, now. Why is it so difficult for you to answer these simple questions? The message you are sending me is that you are trying to sound 'deep', when there is nothing to really back that depth. What I expect you to say, should you choose to answer the questions above, will be standard Christian propaganda. Once again, not personal. Freon Why are you offended by someone asking about your Sabbath practice? You're asking very personal questions. I'm less averse to answering personal questions than I am averse to answering personal questions here on this forum where people in the past have taken advantage of personal information. So basically...none of your business. |
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Post by freonbale on May 15, 2024 1:24:10 GMT
You are speaking in vagaries, and I am asking you specifically. Why Jesus? What meaning? What purpose? What identity? What conviction? What truth? What challenge? What comfort? And I have to add another one, now. Why is it so difficult for you to answer these simple questions? The message you are sending me is that you are trying to sound 'deep', when there is nothing to really back that depth. What I expect you to say, should you choose to answer the questions above, will be standard Christian propaganda. Once again, not personal. Freon Why are you offended by someone asking about your Sabbath practice? You're asking very personal questions. I'm less averse to answering personal questions than I am averse to answering personal questions here on this forum where people in the past have taken advantage of personal information. So basically...none of your business. lol. Dude. Did I not say maybe you were not the best person to ask these questions to here? YET YOU KEEP COMING BACK! Fine. Don't answer. I totally get it's personal. Not trying to pry, but hoping some would be willing to. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 15, 2024 13:31:24 GMT
Why are you offended by someone asking about your Sabbath practice? You're asking very personal questions. I'm less averse to answering personal questions than I am averse to answering personal questions here on this forum where people in the past have taken advantage of personal information. So basically...none of your business. lol. Dude. Did I not say maybe you were not the best person to ask these questions to here? YET YOU KEEP COMING BACK! Fine. Don't answer. I totally get it's personal. Not trying to pry, but hoping some would be willing to. Freon If you're really interested, check out some of these videos: www.iamsecond.com/film/ |
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Post by freonbale on May 15, 2024 13:42:21 GMT
lol. Dude. Did I not say maybe you were not the best person to ask these questions to here? YET YOU KEEP COMING BACK! Fine. Don't answer. I totally get it's personal. Not trying to pry, but hoping some would be willing to. Freon If you're really interested, check out some of these videos: www.iamsecond.com/film/Interesting. So all these people had huge traumas in their lives, and they embraced Jesus to deal with that trauma. But why JESUS in particular. The 'live second' concept seems very Jewish to me. Putting G-d and others first is a mitzvah, a law (we have 613 of them), so what about Jesus attracts people to Jesus? This site is more about why people embraced G-d, not why they specifically chose Jesus, which is my question. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 15, 2024 13:55:25 GMT
Interesting. So all these people had huge traumas in their lives, and they embraced Jesus to deal with that trauma. But why JESUS in particular. The 'live second' concept seems very Jewish to me. Putting G-d and others first is a mitzvah, a law (we have 613 of them), so what about Jesus attracts people to Jesus? This site is more about why people embraced G-d, not why they specifically chose Jesus, which is my question. Freon When someone recognizes Jesus to be the highest revelation of G-d, then choosing G-d is choosing Jesus and vice versa. |
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Post by freonbale on May 15, 2024 14:43:18 GMT
Interesting. So all these people had huge traumas in their lives, and they embraced Jesus to deal with that trauma. But why JESUS in particular. The 'live second' concept seems very Jewish to me. Putting G-d and others first is a mitzvah, a law (we have 613 of them), so what about Jesus attracts people to Jesus? This site is more about why people embraced G-d, not why they specifically chose Jesus, which is my question. Freon When someone recognizes Jesus to be the highest revelation of G-d, then choosing G-d is choosing Jesus and vice versa. Right, so what causes them to make that recognition. It's not like Jesus exists outside of the stories around him, all the different flavors of Christianity, not to mention how belief in Jesus contradicts other Religion's views of G-d completely. So why Jesus? What's the lure? What about the story of Jesus makes Jesus appealing? Let me flip this around. To me, as a Jewish person, the idea that G-d had a son, but that G-d's son is also G-d, is unnecessarily complicated. And because Jesus is G-d, the whole death and resurrection thing is meaningless. Whether Jesus died on a cross, or of old age, he would have still been resurrected, because that's what G-d wanted to happen. There is no sacrifice, because G-d cannot be killed. And because Jesus is G-d, he experienced no fear of death, which alone, would have made him human, like us. So what I see is anthropomorphizing Jesus as one of us, when at all times, he was G-d, and knew it. He never experienced the human condition, our fears of a finite lifespan, the feeling of having no purpose, yet I get the impression that love of Jesus is expressly BECAUSE he was human. Because he was, 'one of us'. He wasn't. Ever. So to accept Jesus as the savior, I would not even factor his being here on Earth as a real live person. The messiah in Judaism is NOT G-d. They are human, with all the human problems and fears we all have. Which brings me back to the main question, which is WHY Jesus? What is so special about Jesus, in particular? What is the attraction for him? I just don't get it. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 15, 2024 18:04:14 GMT
When someone recognizes Jesus to be the highest revelation of G-d, then choosing G-d is choosing Jesus and vice versa. Right, so what causes them to make that recognition. It's not like Jesus exists outside of the stories around him, all the different flavors of Christianity, not to mention how belief in Jesus contradicts other Religion's views of G-d completely. So why Jesus? What's the lure? What about the story of Jesus makes Jesus appealing? Let me flip this around. To me, as a Jewish person, the idea that G-d had a son, but that G-d's son is also G-d, is unnecessarily complicated. And because Jesus is G-d, the whole death and resurrection thing is meaningless. Whether Jesus died on a cross, or of old age, he would have still been resurrected, because that's what G-d wanted to happen. There is no sacrifice, because G-d cannot be killed. And because Jesus is G-d, he experienced no fear of death, which alone, would have made him human, like us. So what I see is anthropomorphizing Jesus as one of us, when at all times, he was G-d, and knew it. He never experienced the human condition, our fears of a finite lifespan, the feeling of having no purpose, yet I get the impression that love of Jesus is expressly BECAUSE he was human. Because he was, 'one of us'. He wasn't. Ever. So to accept Jesus as the savior, I would not even factor his being here on Earth as a real live person. The messiah in Judaism is NOT G-d. They are human, with all the human problems and fears we all have. Which brings me back to the main question, which is WHY Jesus? What is so special about Jesus, in particular? What is the attraction for him? I just don't get it. Freon Oooh...there's a lot to dig in there, but I won't be able to until I get a bit of time. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on May 17, 2024 2:59:04 GMT
If you have already seen the Torah portions that cover, explicitly, how we will identify the messiah upon arrival, and you still disagree with them, then nothing I can show you will change that. Nor am I trying to. I was asked why I do not subscribe to Jesus as messiah, and I said why. But the point of this thread, was/is/will always be, to find out what you Jesus lovers find so appealing about vieing Jesus as messiah, when believing in G-d, sans Jesus, seems to accomplish the same goal. Since it does not, for you, my question is why. What is the gap you are trying to fill? And you have not answered that question. Freon Jesus, as the human embodiment of G-d, clarifies G-d's intent and fulfills his purposes. Is it your illogical understanding that Jesus descends from God or is it mine that Jesus is never in any way diminished by God? |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 17, 2024 17:35:29 GMT
Jesus, as the human embodiment of G-d, clarifies G-d's intent and fulfills his purposes. Is it your illogical understanding that Jesus descends from God or is it mine that Jesus is never in any way diminished by God? Not sure how "descends from" necessitates "diminished by." |
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Post by DaveJavu on May 17, 2024 20:59:22 GMT
Is it your illogical understanding that Jesus descends from God or is it mine that Jesus is never in any way diminished by God? Not sure how "descends from" necessitates "diminished by." Nevertheless, you have to admit that the whole thing is a little... bizarre. |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 20, 2024 20:58:07 GMT
When someone recognizes Jesus to be the highest revelation of G-d, then choosing G-d is choosing Jesus and vice versa. Right, so what causes them to make that recognition. It's not like Jesus exists outside of the stories around him, all the different flavors of Christianity, not to mention how belief in Jesus contradicts other Religion's views of G-d completely. That's actually not true. I've heard many stories of revelations of Jesus to individuals, some of whom were not "culturally predisposed" to have a particularly understanding of him. I know people whose family members have had dreams about Jesus, and, although I can't verify it, I've heard the same from many other sources. Here's one weird one from someone who probably does have a culturally informed understanding of Jesus prior to his experience—I wonder what you think of it: www.iamsecond.com/film/eric-metaxas/Yeah, only because you are culturally distanced from the original message/audience. "G-d had a son." Well, yeah, that's baked right into Judaism, no? Israel is G-d's ons. To claim that Jesus "is G-d's son" is the claim that Jesus is Israel. It's only the "Greekifying" of Christianity distanced us from the thoroughly Jewishness of these early Messiah followers, and created a whole bunch of confusion. Incidentally, the claim that Jesus was the "Son of G-d" was also a direct authority challenge to Caesar who claimed the same. Either way, I don't think too many Christians understand Jesus to be the "biological offspring of G-d" (whatever that even means). As for Jesus "being G-d," the understanding is that G-d stepped into the world to "be Israel for Israel," to "do for Israel and the world what Israel had been unable to do for herself." The idea of an "ideal being," a Son of Adam, a representative of humanity, being elevated to rule with God is also attested in Scripture, most notably in Daniel 7:13 - "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (NASB) Is it, though? The prophets prophesied a suffering messianic figure that would, through his suffering, achieve forgiveness. This character lines up with the so-called Mashiach ben Yoseph, a parallel to the victorious Mashiach ben David (see torahmitzion.org/learn/machiach-ben-yosef-mashiach-ben-david/). Christians would see both roles fulfilled by Jesus. That's what defines humans? Fear of death? Hebrews 2:14-15 - "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives." The ancient doctor Galen described the ancient Christians' lack of fear of death: "Most people are unable to follow any demonstrative argument consecutively; hence they need parables, and benefit from them...just as now we see the people called Christians drawing their faith from parables [and miracles], and yet sometimes acting in the same way [as those who philosophize]. For their contempt of death [and its sequel] is patent to us every day, and likewise their restraint in cohabitation..." Maybe. And yet he wept, suffered, experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc. But, all that aside, what if he was not at all human? Why would that dissuade you from Jesus? Wouldn't that make him more appealing as a saviour? Isn't G-d the ultimate saviour? Why must a saviour (in your mind) be human? |
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Post by freonbale on May 20, 2024 22:31:47 GMT
Right, so what causes them to make that recognition. It's not like Jesus exists outside of the stories around him, all the different flavors of Christianity, not to mention how belief in Jesus contradicts other Religion's views of G-d completely. That's actually not true. I've heard many stories of revelations of Jesus to individuals, some of whom were not "culturally predisposed" to have a particularly understanding of him. I know people whose family members have had dreams about Jesus, and, although I can't verify it, I've heard the same from many other sources. Here's one weird one from someone who probably does have a culturally informed understanding of Jesus prior to his experience—I wonder what you think of it: www.iamsecond.com/film/eric-metaxas/Yeah, only because you are culturally distanced from the original message/audience. "G-d had a son." Well, yeah, that's baked right into Judaism, no? Israel is G-d's ons. To claim that Jesus "is G-d's son" is the claim that Jesus is Israel. It's only the "Greekifying" of Christianity distanced us from the thoroughly Jewishness of these early Messiah followers, and created a whole bunch of confusion. Incidentally, the claim that Jesus was the "Son of G-d" was also a direct authority challenge to Caesar who claimed the same. Either way, I don't think too many Christians understand Jesus to be the "biological offspring of G-d" (whatever that even means). As for Jesus "being G-d," the understanding is that G-d stepped into the world to "be Israel for Israel," to "do for Israel and the world what Israel had been unable to do for herself." The idea of an "ideal being," a Son of Adam, a representative of humanity, being elevated to rule with God is also attested in Scripture, most notably in Daniel 7:13 - "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (NASB) Is it, though? The prophets prophesied a suffering messianic figure that would, through his suffering, achieve forgiveness. This character lines up with the so-called Mashiach ben Yoseph, a parallel to the victorious Mashiach ben David (see torahmitzion.org/learn/machiach-ben-yosef-mashiach-ben-david/). Christians would see both roles fulfilled by Jesus. That's what defines humans? Fear of death? Hebrews 2:14-15 - "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives." The ancient doctor Galen described the ancient Christians' lack of fear of death: "Most people are unable to follow any demonstrative argument consecutively; hence they need parables, and benefit from them...just as now we see the people called Christians drawing their faith from parables [and miracles], and yet sometimes acting in the same way [as those who philosophize]. For their contempt of death [and its sequel] is patent to us every day, and likewise their restraint in cohabitation..." Maybe. And yet he wept, suffered, experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc. But, all that aside, what if he was not at all human? Why would that dissuade you from Jesus? Wouldn't that make him more appealing as a saviour? Isn't G-d the ultimate saviour? Why must a saviour (in your mind) be human? I'm not sure what you mean by savior. Jews do not see the messiah as a savior, but as a leader, uniter, and protector of the Jewish people. Jesus is a savior from what, exactly? Jews celebrate life here and now. What is there to be saved from? You say that PEOPLE wept and suffered when Jesus died, but that does not respond to my point that Jesus KNEW he was G-d. Knew he would not end. There was no risk for him. No fear. G-d does not fear death. So to say he was one of us is not supported by the required other beliefs of what Jesus is. Either he is G-d, or he was a man. Can't be both. They are, by definition, incompatible. And yes, fear of death is a distinctly human trait. We are one of the few animals that understands death at a psychological and empirical level. Most of your responses are from the Bible, so they don't count as viable answers to my points. One cannot say they know there is a G-d, purely because the Bible says so. That's not proof. They cannot say there is an afterlife, because the Bible says so. Unless, of course, every other ancient text on the subject is given equal credibility. Is that what you are saying? That ALL religious texts are accurate, because they say so? I cannot help but find your responses tautological, and therefore, unsatisfying. Your answers are not answers, and half the time, they are themselves, questions. The core question is what the lure of Jesus is, and I do not feel you have adequately, or even remotely really, answered that. It's remarkable to me that given your closeness to your belief, you have such difficult time explaining it. Freon |
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