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Post by Mercy for All on May 20, 2024 23:49:32 GMT
That's actually not true. I've heard many stories of revelations of Jesus to individuals, some of whom were not "culturally predisposed" to have a particularly understanding of him. I know people whose family members have had dreams about Jesus, and, although I can't verify it, I've heard the same from many other sources. Here's one weird one from someone who probably does have a culturally informed understanding of Jesus prior to his experience—I wonder what you think of it: www.iamsecond.com/film/eric-metaxas/Yeah, only because you are culturally distanced from the original message/audience. "G-d had a son." Well, yeah, that's baked right into Judaism, no? Israel is G-d's ons. To claim that Jesus "is G-d's son" is the claim that Jesus is Israel. It's only the "Greekifying" of Christianity distanced us from the thoroughly Jewishness of these early Messiah followers, and created a whole bunch of confusion. Incidentally, the claim that Jesus was the "Son of G-d" was also a direct authority challenge to Caesar who claimed the same. Either way, I don't think too many Christians understand Jesus to be the "biological offspring of G-d" (whatever that even means). As for Jesus "being G-d," the understanding is that G-d stepped into the world to "be Israel for Israel," to "do for Israel and the world what Israel had been unable to do for herself." The idea of an "ideal being," a Son of Adam, a representative of humanity, being elevated to rule with God is also attested in Scripture, most notably in Daniel 7:13 - "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (NASB) Is it, though? The prophets prophesied a suffering messianic figure that would, through his suffering, achieve forgiveness. This character lines up with the so-called Mashiach ben Yoseph, a parallel to the victorious Mashiach ben David (see torahmitzion.org/learn/machiach-ben-yosef-mashiach-ben-david/). Christians would see both roles fulfilled by Jesus. That's what defines humans? Fear of death? Hebrews 2:14-15 - "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives." The ancient doctor Galen described the ancient Christians' lack of fear of death: "Most people are unable to follow any demonstrative argument consecutively; hence they need parables, and benefit from them...just as now we see the people called Christians drawing their faith from parables [and miracles], and yet sometimes acting in the same way [as those who philosophize]. For their contempt of death [and its sequel] is patent to us every day, and likewise their restraint in cohabitation..." Maybe. And yet he wept, suffered, experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc. But, all that aside, what if he was not at all human? Why would that dissuade you from Jesus? Wouldn't that make him more appealing as a saviour? Isn't G-d the ultimate saviour? Why must a saviour (in your mind) be human? I'm not sure what you mean by savior. Jews do not see the messiah as a savior, but as a leader, uniter, and protector of the Jewish people. Jesus is a savior from what, exactly? Jews celebrate life here and now. What is there to be saved from? Moses was a saviour...from Pharaoh. Judas Maccabee was a saviour...from the Greeks. Jesus is a saviour...from death itself, not least. I didn't say that. I said that Jesus wept and suffered. He is intimately familiar with the human experience. Why is risk necessary? Who made that rule? And yet Christians understand that death is not to be feared...it's a defeated enemy. Wait...you want a Christian answer not from the Bible!? Your "arguments against" are presumably based on what you believe the Bible says! Otherwise, why would you make any claims about what Jesus did or did not fear? Or whether Jesus was a legitimate saviour? Or whether Jesus was actually truly human? So...you want to express your issues based on what (you think) the Bible says...but you want a response that is not based on what the Bible says? What do you want? Marx's opinion? Rembrandt's? Make that make sense for me. And yet, nobody has said that that is proof. You never asked for proof. You are arguing against straw men...actually, not even. You are tilting at windmills. You are complaining about what nobody is saying. Nobody is saying, "only because the Bible says so do I believe in an afterlife." Nobody mentioned an afterlife. However, as I've already pointed out...you seem to want an extra-biblical defence about who Jesus was in response to your claims about Jesus. Where did your claims come from? Very, very weird. How do you know that anybody has claimed that Jesus rose from the dead? What is the origin of that idea? What is the origin of the idea that Jesus is G-d? Did you watch the linked video? And yes, I have a difficult time explaining something to someone who moves goalposts, misreads, and has no intention of understanding. |
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Post by freonbale on May 21, 2024 0:47:43 GMT
I'm not sure what you mean by savior. Jews do not see the messiah as a savior, but as a leader, uniter, and protector of the Jewish people. Jesus is a savior from what, exactly? Jews celebrate life here and now. What is there to be saved from? Moses was a saviour...from Pharaoh. Judas Maccabee was a saviour...from the Greeks. Jesus is a saviour...from death itself, not least. I didn't say that. I said that Jesus wept and suffered. He is intimately familiar with the human experience. Why is risk necessary? Who made that rule? And yet Christians understand that death is not to be feared...it's a defeated enemy. Wait...you want a Christian answer not from the Bible!? Your "arguments against" are presumably based on what you believe the Bible says! Otherwise, why would you make any claims about what Jesus did or did not fear? Or whether Jesus was a legitimate saviour? Or whether Jesus was actually truly human? So...you want to express your issues based on what (you think) the Bible says...but you want a response that is not based on what the Bible says? What do you want? Marx's opinion? Rembrandt's? Make that make sense for me. And yet, nobody has said that that is proof. You never asked for proof. You are arguing against straw men...actually, not even. You are tilting at windmills. You are complaining about what nobody is saying. Nobody is saying, "only because the Bible says so do I believe in an afterlife." Nobody mentioned an afterlife. However, as I've already pointed out...you seem to want an extra-biblical defence about who Jesus was in response to your claims about Jesus. Where did your claims come from? Very, very weird. How do you know that anybody has claimed that Jesus rose from the dead? What is the origin of that idea? What is the origin of the idea that Jesus is G-d? Did you watch the linked video? And yes, I have a difficult time explaining something to someone who moves goalposts, misreads, and has no intention of understanding. Ok, here we go down the rabbit hole again, Mercy. Why don't you just stop responding. You are doing a REALLY bad job of answering my VERY SIMPLE question. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, you have said, answers my question. You cannot answer my question academically. And you choose not to share your personal experience. Therefore, you do not possess the tools to provide a genuine answer. Don't worry, though. Your need to be the expert in Christianity in this forum is untarnished. If anyone asks who has the most book knowledge about your religion, I will absolutely recommend you. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 21, 2024 9:04:51 GMT
Moses was a saviour...from Pharaoh. Judas Maccabee was a saviour...from the Greeks. Jesus is a saviour...from death itself, not least. I didn't say that. I said that Jesus wept and suffered. He is intimately familiar with the human experience. Why is risk necessary? Who made that rule? And yet Christians understand that death is not to be feared...it's a defeated enemy. Wait...you want a Christian answer not from the Bible!? Your "arguments against" are presumably based on what you believe the Bible says! Otherwise, why would you make any claims about what Jesus did or did not fear? Or whether Jesus was a legitimate saviour? Or whether Jesus was actually truly human? So...you want to express your issues based on what (you think) the Bible says...but you want a response that is not based on what the Bible says? What do you want? Marx's opinion? Rembrandt's? Make that make sense for me. And yet, nobody has said that that is proof. You never asked for proof. You are arguing against straw men...actually, not even. You are tilting at windmills. You are complaining about what nobody is saying. Nobody is saying, "only because the Bible says so do I believe in an afterlife." Nobody mentioned an afterlife. However, as I've already pointed out...you seem to want an extra-biblical defence about who Jesus was in response to your claims about Jesus. Where did your claims come from? Very, very weird. How do you know that anybody has claimed that Jesus rose from the dead? What is the origin of that idea? What is the origin of the idea that Jesus is G-d? Did you watch the linked video? And yes, I have a difficult time explaining something to someone who moves goalposts, misreads, and has no intention of understanding. Ok, here we go down the rabbit hole again, Mercy. Why don't you just stop responding. You are doing a REALLY bad job of answering my VERY SIMPLE question. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, you have said, answers my question. You cannot answer my question academically. And you choose not to share your personal experience. Therefore, you do not possess the tools to provide a genuine answer. Don't worry, though. Your need to be the expert in Christianity in this forum is untarnished. If anyone asks who has the most book knowledge about your religion, I will absolutely recommend you. Freon Your questions are bizarre. “Jesus was not human enough to be a savior.” That’s your issue? “I don’t get the specific appeal but I refuse to watch a short testimony video.” Okay…so you don’t really want to know? “I’ll misread your post.” Okay… There for all to see. |
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Post by freonbale on May 21, 2024 13:58:43 GMT
Ok, here we go down the rabbit hole again, Mercy. Why don't you just stop responding. You are doing a REALLY bad job of answering my VERY SIMPLE question. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, you have said, answers my question. You cannot answer my question academically. And you choose not to share your personal experience. Therefore, you do not possess the tools to provide a genuine answer. Don't worry, though. Your need to be the expert in Christianity in this forum is untarnished. If anyone asks who has the most book knowledge about your religion, I will absolutely recommend you. Freon Your questions are bizarre. “Jesus was not human enough to be a savior.” That’s your issue? “I don’t get the specific appeal but I refuse to watch a short testimony video.” Okay…so you don’t really want to know? “I’ll misread your post.” Okay… There for all to see. Yup, your bookish responses are also there for all to see. If the coin were flipped, I would have no issue answering this question. You would know why I chose Judaism over other religions. What its appeal is/was to me. But I still have no clue what the appeal of Jesus is to you, or anyone. Your answers have come nowhere even close to explaining how you were able to resolve all the obvious inconsistencies (which all religions have, including mine), and still find Jesus, in particular, appealing. You have these silly explanations and tautologies for obvious problems in his story, because Jesus is so appealing to you. Ok, fine. Why? Since you are struggling so badly here, I'll try and make this easier for you. For the purposes of this discussion, I'll assume Jesus is the son of G-d. I'll assume he is an actual man, who has all the problems of the rest of us, and does not know his future. Is that the appeal? That's he's, 'one of us'? It can't purely be his message, because it is nearly identical to Judaism, and really, most other religion's. Is it that by accepting Jesus, the requirements of the religion are low enough that most people feel they can achieve them to be a 'good' Christian? When you think about G-d, are you imagining Jesus, or the white-haired dude? The vast majority of Christians I know are secular. Of the non-secular versions I've known over the years, 90% are some of the most closed-minded, elitist, self-righteous people I have ever met. The other 10% are some of the most kind, amazing people I've ever met, people I strive to be like. None of that 10% talk like you. You sound exactly, EXACTLY, like the 90. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 21, 2024 17:21:42 GMT
Your questions are bizarre. “Jesus was not human enough to be a savior.” That’s your issue? “I don’t get the specific appeal but I refuse to watch a short testimony video.” Okay…so you don’t really want to know? “I’ll misread your post.” Okay… There for all to see. Yup, your bookish responses are also there for all to see. If the coin were flipped, I would have no issue answering this question. You would know why I chose Judaism over other religions. What its appeal is/was to me. Did you? Did you choose it? Or did it choose yo? You keep bringing up inconsistencies that aren't inconsistencies. What you call "silly explanations" and "tautologies" are only so from a modern mind that refuses to see the text from the point of view of the context in which it was written. The whole "G-d vs. Son of G-d" thing is not really that complicated. At all. But it helps for you to perceive it that way, so you hold on to you anachronistic framework. Am I, though? Ah, now that's a good question. As for "the white haired dude," please tell me you haven't bought into the anti-theistic caricature that bolsters "argument by ridicule." Anti-theists say, "I don't believe in an old bearded man in the sky." Yeah, well, neither do I. Read on, my cynical friend. Then are they "Christians"? Wait, are you still, in this context, using "Christian" as a socio-political demographic category? If so, what does Jesus have to do with that? I guess that's too bad. What is the appeal of Jesus? The Creator of the world, who created in order to love, ultimately demonstrated his love by becoming human...walking in human shoes. Not just human, but Jewish. Not just incarnated, but enculturated. He lived in a world dominated by striving for power, with its inevitable marginalization of the poor and disenfranchised. A striving for power driven by shame, weakness, and fear of death He faced it head on, not facing the power structures on their own terms, but on his own. That's how the Creator undermined the power, the fear, etc. When I look at Jesus on the cross, I see my own wrongdoing, shame, fear of death, and predilection to power. All of those brought to their death with him on the cross. And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side. Not just in books, but in personal experience. What does God look like? Like that. The one who loves enough to suffer. That's the appeal. And the deaf mock the description of harmony as a fabrication of those that hear. |
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Post by freonbale on May 21, 2024 17:54:05 GMT
Yup, your bookish responses are also there for all to see. If the coin were flipped, I would have no issue answering this question. You would know why I chose Judaism over other religions. What its appeal is/was to me. Did you? Did you choose it? Or did it choose yo? You keep bringing up inconsistencies that aren't inconsistencies. What you call "silly explanations" and "tautologies" are only so from a modern mind that refuses to see the text from the point of view of the context in which it was written. The whole "G-d vs. Son of G-d" thing is not really that complicated. At all. But it helps for you to perceive it that way, so you hold on to you anachronistic framework. Am I, though? Ah, now that's a good question. As for "the white haired dude," please tell me you haven't bought into the anti-theistic caricature that bolsters "argument by ridicule." Anti-theists say, "I don't believe in an old bearded man in the sky." Yeah, well, neither do I. Read on, my cynical friend. Then are they "Christians"? Wait, are you still, in this context, using "Christian" as a socio-political demographic category? If so, what does Jesus have to do with that? I guess that's too bad. What is the appeal of Jesus? The Creator of the world, who created in order to love, ultimately demonstrated his love by becoming human...walking in human shoes. Not just human, but Jewish. Not just incarnated, but enculturated. He lived in a world dominated by striving for power, with its inevitable marginalization of the poor and disenfranchised. A striving for power driven by shame, weakness, and fear of death He faced it head on, not facing the power structures on their own terms, but on his own. That's how the Creator undermined the power, the fear, etc. When I look at Jesus on the cross, I see my own wrongdoing, shame, fear of death, and predilection to power. All of those brought to their death with him on the cross. And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side. Not just in books, but in personal experience. What does God look like? Like that. The one who loves enough to suffer. That's the appeal. And the deaf mock the description of harmony as a fabrication of those that hear. That is your first honest response to my question so far, Mercy. But before I respond, I will answer your questions, that are not actual questions. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes (anyone who calls themselves a Christian, is a Christian, whether you agree with them or not. YOU do not define Christianity, nor is there a single standard for what a Christian is. If you disagree, that it is your arrogance and self-righteousness speaking, both of which I believe Jesus would not be too thrilled with). My previous answer, answers your other two as well. Ok, now to the only part of your response that actually addresses my question, and finally, FINALLY, you are being honest with me. Why does it take so much to extract this info from you? Nothing you wrote is overly private, or can be used against you. I hear two points. First, that you like that he became human, and since you believe he was as frail as a human, you can appreciate and relate to his suffering. That makes sense, I can totally see it. And the second point is that your life is merely a staging area in preparation for the the next one. THAT is new information to me. Wow. That is diametrically opposite of Judaism. And it explains why so many Christians do bad things. They don't believe. If they feared the consequences in an afterlife, they would behave better, but since they do not believe, they can still call themselves Christians, act in the name of Christianity, but use it only as a tool to accomplish their ends. My god looks very different than yours. Mine is a protector, and does not themself, suffer. Mine expects us to live our best lives here, because here is the most important part of our existence. We do not gain points for bringing new people into our group, and despite how we behave here, there is something waiting for us when we die, no matter what. Being Jewish is a responsibility, and it is a privilege, but also a membership in an exclusive international club that predates just about every other religion on the planet. We are all welcome in any other Jewish community we come in contact with. Our continued existence and success, is testament itself to our durability in what we believe in. No other religion has this. No other religion has a culture that has embedded itself successfully in every society it has come in contact with, becoming some of the most important people in those societies all throughout history. And Judaism is fun. Jewish humor, music, art, food and philosophy are distinct, well-known and beloved by most. Giving up Judaism is not just changing how one believes in a deity, it is leaving a culture and a legacy. This is why most converts from Judaism were raised outside the culture. And why it is the culture, not the religion, that attracts new people. You have adequately answered my question, Mercy. I wonder if others will share their opinions as well. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 21, 2024 22:10:10 GMT
Did you? Did you choose it? Or did it choose yo? You keep bringing up inconsistencies that aren't inconsistencies. What you call "silly explanations" and "tautologies" are only so from a modern mind that refuses to see the text from the point of view of the context in which it was written. The whole "G-d vs. Son of G-d" thing is not really that complicated. At all. But it helps for you to perceive it that way, so you hold on to you anachronistic framework. Am I, though? Ah, now that's a good question. As for "the white haired dude," please tell me you haven't bought into the anti-theistic caricature that bolsters "argument by ridicule." Anti-theists say, "I don't believe in an old bearded man in the sky." Yeah, well, neither do I. Read on, my cynical friend. Then are they "Christians"? Wait, are you still, in this context, using "Christian" as a socio-political demographic category? If so, what does Jesus have to do with that? I guess that's too bad. What is the appeal of Jesus? The Creator of the world, who created in order to love, ultimately demonstrated his love by becoming human...walking in human shoes. Not just human, but Jewish. Not just incarnated, but enculturated. He lived in a world dominated by striving for power, with its inevitable marginalization of the poor and disenfranchised. A striving for power driven by shame, weakness, and fear of death He faced it head on, not facing the power structures on their own terms, but on his own. That's how the Creator undermined the power, the fear, etc. When I look at Jesus on the cross, I see my own wrongdoing, shame, fear of death, and predilection to power. All of those brought to their death with him on the cross. And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side. Not just in books, but in personal experience. What does God look like? Like that. The one who loves enough to suffer. That's the appeal. And the deaf mock the description of harmony as a fabrication of those that hear. That is your first honest response to my question so far, Mercy. But before I respond, I will answer your questions, that are not actual questions. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes (anyone who calls themselves a Christian, is a Christian, whether you agree with them or not. YOU do not define Christianity, nor is there a single standard for what a Christian is. If you disagree, that it is your arrogance and self-righteousness speaking, both of which I believe Jesus would not be too thrilled with). My previous answer, answers your other two as well. And that is why I prefer the term "Jesus-follower"; it's a lot harder to fake and easier to distinguish. But...can I call myself a Jew? What are the parameters? And do you get to define what those parameters are? That's because it's non-specific. Deliberately. I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that my "life is merely a staging area in preparation for the the next one." What, in what I wrote, intimates that? Like...at all!? I said nothing about an afterlife. At all. Who said anything about gaining points? I didn't. That said, if there is legitimate benefit to someone else, it would be truly selfish to keep it to myself. No? Like...there's a sale at Costco...but I can't be bothered to tell you... ...unless I know that you hate Costco. Then I might not. Just about. But not every other religion. Not sure how much longevity legitimizes. Even ultra-orthodox? Undeniable. You do understand that the very first followers of Jesus were Jewish, yes? And they lived and worshiped together in a truly Jewish way. The first tragedy of Christian history in relationship to Judaism was the loss of that Jewish expression (likely a sociological reaction). The "Greekification" of Christianity strongly persists today (including the idea of some kind of disembodied spiritual hereafter). The second great tragedy of our Christian history is the deplorable scapegoating of Jews throughout the Middle Ages (not consistent, and not universal, but any at all is bad enough). As bad as the Nazis were, they merely institutionalized and industrialized a persecution that had gone on for centuries. Deplorable. Shameful. Thanks, but don't hold your breath. I'm feeling pretty lonely here lately. It's possible Maestro might post something. Everyone else who identifies as Christian on this site seems pretty reticent to discuss it. |
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Post by freonbale on May 21, 2024 22:30:12 GMT
That is your first honest response to my question so far, Mercy. But before I respond, I will answer your questions, that are not actual questions. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes (anyone who calls themselves a Christian, is a Christian, whether you agree with them or not. YOU do not define Christianity, nor is there a single standard for what a Christian is. If you disagree, that it is your arrogance and self-righteousness speaking, both of which I believe Jesus would not be too thrilled with). My previous answer, answers your other two as well. And that is why I prefer the term "Jesus-follower"; it's a lot harder to fake and easier to distinguish. But...can I call myself a Jew? What are the parameters? And do you get to define what those parameters are? That's because it's non-specific. Deliberately. I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that my "life is merely a staging area in preparation for the the next one." What, in what I wrote, intimates that? Like...at all!? I said nothing about an afterlife. At all. Who said anything about gaining points? I didn't. That said, if there is legitimate benefit to someone else, it would be truly selfish to keep it to myself. No? Like...there's a sale at Costco...but I can't be bothered to tell you... ...unless I know that you hate Costco. Then I might not. Just about. But not every other religion. Not sure how much longevity legitimizes. Even ultra-orthodox? Undeniable. You do understand that the very first followers of Jesus were Jewish, yes? And they lived and worshiped together in a truly Jewish way. The first tragedy of Christian history in relationship to Judaism was the loss of that Jewish expression (likely a sociological reaction). The "Greekification" of Christianity strongly persists today (including the idea of some kind of disembodied spiritual hereafter). The second great tragedy of our Christian history is the deplorable scapegoating of Jews throughout the Middle Ages (not consistent, and not universal, but any at all is bad enough). As bad as the Nazis were, they merely institutionalized and industrialized a persecution that had gone on for centuries. Deplorable. Shameful. Thanks, but don't hold your breath. I'm feeling pretty lonely here lately. It's possible Maestro might post something. Everyone else who identifies as Christian on this site seems pretty reticent to discuss it. In reference to your life as a staging area, it is a response when you said, 'And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side.' What is 'the other side', if not after death? You even directly reference death, saying you can die, and life on the other side. Moving on. You can personally call people 'Jesus followers' all day, but that is your personal opinion, not the consensus of all the millions of 'Jesus followers' who consider themselves full-on Christians. My guess is that if you told them your opinion, you'd likely get punched in the stomach for insulting them. Why do you feel you get to judge the quality of other people's Christianity? Why do ANY of you feel you can judge each other this way? Sounds highly dysfunctional to me. In the U.S. right now, there is a cold war going on between Christians and Christians, and both sides think the other has failed at being Christian. In your comments responding to what it means to be Jewish, longevity does not legitimize anything. That was not my point. My point is that being Jewish is being part of the one of the oldest legacies of a culture that exists today. I'm a product of all the Jews that came before me, all the exact same traditions that I still follow. It is a connection to history that gives me great pride. And your comment about ultra-orthodox? Yes. I can, and have, prayed with them in their temples. In fact, on Passover, it is required that ANYONE who wants to join the Seder, MUST be allowed. No one holds that rule more sacred than the ultra-orthodox. What I mean is that you are MUCH more likely to be included in an ultra-orthodox service or Seder, than from a Conservative/Reform one. So, you kind of have it backwards, when you questioned what I said. You should have said, 'even Conservative'? To that, I would have said, 'most likely'. I personally have never been denied access to any of the three sects of Judaism. The first followers of Jesus may have started as Jews, but the second they accepted Jesus as the messiah, they lost their way. I won't argue the point, because obviously Christianity disagrees, but from our perspective, that's how it is. As to the tragedies of Christianity, that list is LONG. I'm assuming you mean, 'with respect to Judaism', those are the worst tragedies. I hope more contribute to this thread. It would be nice to have a frame of reference, and for the record, I never wanted details of your religious beginnings, just the general appeal. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 21, 2024 23:57:28 GMT
And that is why I prefer the term "Jesus-follower"; it's a lot harder to fake and easier to distinguish. But...can I call myself a Jew? What are the parameters? And do you get to define what those parameters are? That's because it's non-specific. Deliberately. I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that my "life is merely a staging area in preparation for the the next one." What, in what I wrote, intimates that? Like...at all!? I said nothing about an afterlife. At all. Who said anything about gaining points? I didn't. That said, if there is legitimate benefit to someone else, it would be truly selfish to keep it to myself. No? Like...there's a sale at Costco...but I can't be bothered to tell you... ...unless I know that you hate Costco. Then I might not. Just about. But not every other religion. Not sure how much longevity legitimizes. Even ultra-orthodox? Undeniable. You do understand that the very first followers of Jesus were Jewish, yes? And they lived and worshiped together in a truly Jewish way. The first tragedy of Christian history in relationship to Judaism was the loss of that Jewish expression (likely a sociological reaction). The "Greekification" of Christianity strongly persists today (including the idea of some kind of disembodied spiritual hereafter). The second great tragedy of our Christian history is the deplorable scapegoating of Jews throughout the Middle Ages (not consistent, and not universal, but any at all is bad enough). As bad as the Nazis were, they merely institutionalized and industrialized a persecution that had gone on for centuries. Deplorable. Shameful. Thanks, but don't hold your breath. I'm feeling pretty lonely here lately. It's possible Maestro might post something. Everyone else who identifies as Christian on this site seems pretty reticent to discuss it. In reference to your life as a staging area, it is a response when you said, 'And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side.' What is 'the other side', if not after death? You even directly reference death, saying you can die, and life on the other side. It's life after death in this life. We all (can) experience "mini deaths"—death to my own pursuit of power, shame, etc., with life on the other side of that. Sorry for the mis-implication. Define that "consensus." At its basis would be the basic creeds (the "basic beliefs"). Arguably, what people do matters more than what they claim to believe, and arguably what they do demonstrates what they really believe. There are all kinds of reasons why there are a lot of disagreements between Christians (and Christian groups). It could be a mere factor of size. There are far more self-described Christians than Jews. So it stands to reason that there would be more kinds of groups of them. Pride? Seems to me it would be more responsibility than pride (something you also alluded to). You didn't do anything to "earn" your place in that history, so why the pride? Quibbling, I know. That's cool, thanks for the clarification. But...culturally...still Jewish. You've said elsewhere that someone's connection to Judaism is less about specific beliefs than culture. My tour guide in Israel was an atheist. Still Jewish. Yes, because of the terrible irony. I hope so, too. |
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Post by freonbale on May 22, 2024 0:12:03 GMT
In reference to your life as a staging area, it is a response when you said, 'And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side.' What is 'the other side', if not after death? You even directly reference death, saying you can die, and life on the other side. It's life after death in this life. We all (can) experience "mini deaths"—death to my own pursuit of power, shame, etc., with life on the other side of that. Sorry for the mis-implication. Define that "consensus." At its basis would be the basic creeds (the "basic beliefs"). Arguably, what people do matters more than what they claim to believe, and arguably what they do demonstrates what they really believe. There are all kinds of reasons why there are a lot of disagreements between Christians (and Christian groups). It could be a mere factor of size. There are far more self-described Christians than Jews. So it stands to reason that there would be more kinds of groups of them. Pride? Seems to me it would be more responsibility than pride (something you also alluded to). You didn't do anything to "earn" your place in that history, so why the pride? Quibbling, I know. That's cool, thanks for the clarification. But...culturally...still Jewish. You've said elsewhere that someone's connection to Judaism is less about specific beliefs than culture. My tour guide in Israel was an atheist. Still Jewish. Yes, because of the terrible irony. I hope so, too. Life after death, 'in this life'? Reincarnation? What the heck are you talking about. I know a LOT of mainstream Christians, and I've never heard of them talking about coming back for another try. Please clarify. If this is a metaphor of some kind, I don't get it at all. To your consensus question, the only person who gets to judge good Christians is G-d. Not you. So when you say you are a good one, and they are not, it is meaningless to me and to them. You'll both know when you die. But I did earn my place in the history of Judaism. I follow the same traditions that even Jesus did. He was bar mitzvahed, so was I. He read from the Torah in Hebrew cantillation. So did I. He was accepted by the Jewish community (prior to his delusion that he was the messiah). So was I. I don't really think you can understand what it's like to be Jewish, because your religion is nothing like Judaism. It has no single culture that unifies the whole. The ONLY thing you all have is belief in Jesus as the messiah. That may be huge to you, it may be enough, but from my perspective, you are missing something that you don't even realize you are missing. And once the Jesus followers strayed from their beliefs, they were no longer welcome as part of the culture. They sacrificed more than their religion when they chose Jesus. They sacrificed their inclusion in an entire people. So, not Jewish. Guyim. Irony? Persecution of an entire people, and all it is to you is ironic and tragic? Jesus may have suffered, but the suffering Christians caused Jews is a sin that no amount of time will heal, especially when the modern devout Christian takes the attitude of, 'that's too bad'. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 22, 2024 0:39:43 GMT
It's life after death in this life. We all (can) experience "mini deaths"—death to my own pursuit of power, shame, etc., with life on the other side of that. Sorry for the mis-implication. Define that "consensus." At its basis would be the basic creeds (the "basic beliefs"). Arguably, what people do matters more than what they claim to believe, and arguably what they do demonstrates what they really believe. There are all kinds of reasons why there are a lot of disagreements between Christians (and Christian groups). It could be a mere factor of size. There are far more self-described Christians than Jews. So it stands to reason that there would be more kinds of groups of them. Pride? Seems to me it would be more responsibility than pride (something you also alluded to). You didn't do anything to "earn" your place in that history, so why the pride? Quibbling, I know. That's cool, thanks for the clarification. But...culturally...still Jewish. You've said elsewhere that someone's connection to Judaism is less about specific beliefs than culture. My tour guide in Israel was an atheist. Still Jewish. Yes, because of the terrible irony. I hope so, too. Life after death, 'in this life'? Reincarnation? What the heck are you talking about. I know a LOT of mainstream Christians, and I've never heard of them talking about coming back for another try. Please clarify. If this is a metaphor of some kind, I don't get it at all. It's kind of a metaphor, but not precisely. Every time I make a choice, whatever I don't choose dies. I choose this course of education over that one...that one dies. We start this process when we're born. It's not that new neurons are created in our brain, but that potential pathways "die off" as neural pathways are created. One scientist said it this way: "we literally die into ourselves." So when my modus operandi in life is self-preservation through power, and in Jesus I find the way of humility to be desirable, or preferable, or merely an act of obedience, I die to my own pursuit of power. That is no longer a legitimate path for me. When I am confronted by my own illegitimate behaviour and it has to die, it's a painful process. Humiliating. But through that and past that is true life. He would save his own life loses it, but whoever gives up his life finds it. Metaphor. But not really metaphor. A physical, metaphysical, and existential reality. Well, first of all, I never said I "was a good one." However, it doesn't take God to tell me the cut is crooked if I have a straight edge. And Jesus is a straight-edge by which we can see when someone is crooked. But you were born into it. Did you choose bar mitzvah? Or did your parents choose it for you? The survival of the Jewish culture was not something "you did." So...atheist...Jewish. Recognition of Jesus as mashiach...not Jewish? What if you're wrong? What if he is? You think "irony" means "too bad"? It doesn't. It's ironic because Christians were killing and persecuting Jews who were the Tree into which they were grafted. I've already said it was a tragedy, didn't I? A "terrible irony" is not "too bad." It's terrible. |
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Post by freonbale on May 22, 2024 3:22:13 GMT
Life after death, 'in this life'? Reincarnation? What the heck are you talking about. I know a LOT of mainstream Christians, and I've never heard of them talking about coming back for another try. Please clarify. If this is a metaphor of some kind, I don't get it at all. It's kind of a metaphor, but not precisely. Every time I make a choice, whatever I don't choose dies. I choose this course of education over that one...that one dies. We start this process when we're born. It's not that new neurons are created in our brain, but that potential pathways "die off" as neural pathways are created. One scientist said it this way: "we literally die into ourselves." So when my modus operandi in life is self-preservation through power, and in Jesus I find the way of humility to be desirable, or preferable, or merely an act of obedience, I die to my own pursuit of power. That is no longer a legitimate path for me. When I am confronted by my own illegitimate behaviour and it has to die, it's a painful process. Humiliating. But through that and past that is true life. He would save his own life loses it, but whoever gives up his life finds it. Metaphor. But not really metaphor. A physical, metaphysical, and existential reality. Well, first of all, I never said I "was a good one." However, it doesn't take God to tell me the cut is crooked if I have a straight edge. And Jesus is a straight-edge by which we can see when someone is crooked. But you were born into it. Did you choose bar mitzvah? Or did your parents choose it for you? The survival of the Jewish culture was not something "you did." So...atheist...Jewish. Recognition of Jesus as mashiach...not Jewish? What if you're wrong? What if he is? You think "irony" means "too bad"? It doesn't. It's ironic because Christians were killing and persecuting Jews who were the Tree into which they were grafted. I've already said it was a tragedy, didn't I? A "terrible irony" is not "too bad." It's terrible. Your 'death' metaphor, I call utter bullshit. Feel free to view it that way, but life is full of choices, and the ones that led you astray, the ones you now regret, are still completely a part of who you are. They are not dead, especially to those you were unkind to. I cannot respect someone who does not take responsibility for all that they have done and all that they were. You don't get to start over, because you don't like your past. No one does. Personally, I have zero regrets from my past. I made mistakes, turned one way, when I should have turned another, hurt people without knowing, or sometimes when I did. And who I am now is all that, rolled into one person who grew from each of those experiences, and became what I now accept as a much better me. Your cutting analogy has tons of holes in it. In the end, it's just your view, against theirs. I wonder what Jesus will say to you when you explain how you thought you were a better Christian than all those you've judged. Remember me when you have that convo, and know that I'm chuckling. As to your notion that I have not taken part in the legacy of being Jewish, it just shows me you don't understand how different our religions actually are. I guess that is something the schools cannot teach, or maybe you are just trying to make me feel bad about the awesomeness of being a Jew, lol. If so, best try a different tactic, as I LOVE being Jewish. What if Jesus is the messiah? I really don't see a problem. I'll say to G-d, hey, I was wrong. G-d will say, cool, thanks for keeping an open mind. But what if YOU are wrong? The Jews are G-d's chosen people, and you strayed from the path, and chose idolatry. That's a MAJOR no-no in Judaism, one of the oldest and most serious of offenses. My guess is that if each of us is wrong, my penalty, if any, will be much lighter than yours. I'm not going to argue the level of regret that Christians should have for what they've done (and are still doing), suffice it to say that it really doesn't matter. Jews have outlasted every other religion. When Christianity is long gone, there will still be Jews. That is the durability that no other religion or culture can claim. Our goal is not to be dominant, but to be left alone. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 22, 2024 17:54:11 GMT
It's kind of a metaphor, but not precisely. Every time I make a choice, whatever I don't choose dies. I choose this course of education over that one...that one dies. We start this process when we're born. It's not that new neurons are created in our brain, but that potential pathways "die off" as neural pathways are created. One scientist said it this way: "we literally die into ourselves." So when my modus operandi in life is self-preservation through power, and in Jesus I find the way of humility to be desirable, or preferable, or merely an act of obedience, I die to my own pursuit of power. That is no longer a legitimate path for me. When I am confronted by my own illegitimate behaviour and it has to die, it's a painful process. Humiliating. But through that and past that is true life. He would save his own life loses it, but whoever gives up his life finds it. Metaphor. But not really metaphor. A physical, metaphysical, and existential reality. Well, first of all, I never said I "was a good one." However, it doesn't take God to tell me the cut is crooked if I have a straight edge. And Jesus is a straight-edge by which we can see when someone is crooked. But you were born into it. Did you choose bar mitzvah? Or did your parents choose it for you? The survival of the Jewish culture was not something "you did." So...atheist...Jewish. Recognition of Jesus as mashiach...not Jewish? What if you're wrong? What if he is? You think "irony" means "too bad"? It doesn't. It's ironic because Christians were killing and persecuting Jews who were the Tree into which they were grafted. I've already said it was a tragedy, didn't I? A "terrible irony" is not "too bad." It's terrible. Your 'death' metaphor, I call utter bullshit. Feel free to view it that way, but life is full of choices, and the ones that led you astray, the ones you now regret, are still completely a part of who you are. They are not dead, especially to those you were unkind to. I cannot respect someone who does not take responsibility for all that they have done and all that they were. You don't get to start over, because you don't like your past. No one does. Personally, I have zero regrets from my past. I made mistakes, turned one way, when I should have turned another, hurt people without knowing, or sometimes when I did. And who I am now is all that, rolled into one person who grew from each of those experiences, and became what I now accept as a much better me. Your failure to comprehend doesn't justify rudeness. What do you mean by "better"? That's cool. I'm glad you love it. There's a lot to love. It's weird to be proud of what you didn't do. Just as it's weird to be ashamed of what you didn't do. Maybe. I'm glad you guys changed in that regards. The sociological separation between early Jesus-followers and the Jewish community was not for no reason. |
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Post by freonbale on May 22, 2024 18:26:37 GMT
Your 'death' metaphor, I call utter bullshit. Feel free to view it that way, but life is full of choices, and the ones that led you astray, the ones you now regret, are still completely a part of who you are. They are not dead, especially to those you were unkind to. I cannot respect someone who does not take responsibility for all that they have done and all that they were. You don't get to start over, because you don't like your past. No one does. Personally, I have zero regrets from my past. I made mistakes, turned one way, when I should have turned another, hurt people without knowing, or sometimes when I did. And who I am now is all that, rolled into one person who grew from each of those experiences, and became what I now accept as a much better me. Your failure to comprehend doesn't justify rudeness. What do you mean by "better"? That's cool. I'm glad you love it. There's a lot to love. It's weird to be proud of what you didn't do. Just as it's weird to be ashamed of what you didn't do. Maybe. I'm glad you guys changed in that regards. The sociological separation between early Jesus-followers and the Jewish community was not for no reason. I don't see anything in your response that requires a response from me. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on May 22, 2024 19:54:20 GMT
Your failure to comprehend doesn't justify rudeness. What do you mean by "better"? That's cool. I'm glad you love it. There's a lot to love. It's weird to be proud of what you didn't do. Just as it's weird to be ashamed of what you didn't do. Maybe. I'm glad you guys changed in that regards. The sociological separation between early Jesus-followers and the Jewish community was not for no reason. I don't see anything in your response that requires a response from me. Freon And yet you felt obligated to respond. 🙂 |
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Post by freonbale on May 22, 2024 20:08:14 GMT
I don't see anything in your response that requires a response from me. Freon And yet you felt obligated to respond. 🙂 Because I'm polite, of course. Freon |
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DaveJavu
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Post by DaveJavu on May 22, 2024 21:19:20 GMT
In reference to your life as a staging area, it is a response when you said, 'And true life through the other side. Even in my worst, I can die, and life is on the other side. No matter the shame and fear. He has been there and he is there. And he beckons to life on the other side.' What is 'the other side', if not after death? You even directly reference death, saying you can die, and life on the other side. It's life after death in this life. We all (can) experience "mini deaths"—death to my own pursuit of power, shame, etc., with life on the other side of that. Sorry for the mis-implication. Define that "consensus." At its basis would be the basic creeds (the "basic beliefs"). Arguably, what people do matters more than what they claim to believe, and arguably what they do demonstrates what they really believe. There are all kinds of reasons why there are a lot of disagreements between Christians (and Christian groups). It could be a mere factor of size. There are far more self-described Christians than Jews. So it stands to reason that there would be more kinds of groups of them. Pride? Seems to me it would be more responsibility than pride (something you also alluded to). You didn't do anything to "earn" your place in that history, so why the pride? Quibbling, I know. That's cool, thanks for the clarification. But...culturally...still Jewish. You've said elsewhere that someone's connection to Judaism is less about specific beliefs than culture. My tour guide in Israel was an atheist. Still Jewish. Yes, because of the terrible irony. I hope so, too. "O death in life, the days that are no more." Tennyson |
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