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Post by Lomelis on Apr 12, 2022 6:36:02 GMT
What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what? Ummm, perhaps the Ukrainians are fighting for their own right to self-determination regardless of NATO membership, etc.? Or do you just assume they are mindless slaves to NATO and the west willing to believe anything they are told? You know, it's just POSSIBLE that they don't want the damn Russians dictating their government or affairs and are willing to fight for that. I sense a resentment and general anger from some here, shown in different ways, for how this has been turning out. As though Russia was a welcome and useful counter to western power and ambitions and their total fucking up of this thing with Ukraine has not only made that position much harder to push, it has upended the much desired down-spiral that the west and NATO seemed to be engaged in for the last 20 years. This idea that Ukraine only fights because of some NATO dream is pathetic. Are those people in the fields and alleys screaming "NATO!" when they attack the Russians or are they screaming "Glory to Ukraine!" ? They aren't fighting and dying for NATO, they are fighting and dying for their country and their families. Talk about an epic strawman. You really are just not paying attention. Calm down. Get your emotions under control. Wipe away those tears. When you have pulled yourself together reread the arguments. |
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 12, 2022 11:02:30 GMT
What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what? Ummm, perhaps the Ukrainians are fighting for their own right to self-determination regardless of NATO membership, etc.? Or do you just assume they are mindless slaves to NATO and the west willing to believe anything they are told? You know, it's just POSSIBLE that they don't want the damn Russians dictating their government or affairs and are willing to fight for that. I sense a resentment and general anger from some here, shown in different ways, for how this has been turning out. As though Russia was a welcome and useful counter to western power and ambitions and their total fucking up of this thing with Ukraine has not only made that position much harder to push, it has upended the much desired down-spiral that the west and NATO seemed to be engaged in for the last 20 years. This idea that Ukraine only fights because of some NATO dream is pathetic. Are those people in the fields and alleys screaming "NATO!" when they attack the Russians or are they screaming "Glory to Ukraine!" ? They aren't fighting and dying for NATO, they are fighting and dying for their country and their families. Shitbag has already admitted that he has a financial interest in a Russian triumph. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 12, 2022 13:39:40 GMT
Ummm, perhaps the Ukrainians are fighting for their own right to self-determination regardless of NATO membership, etc.?... This idea that Ukraine only fights because of some NATO dream is pathetic. Are those people in the fields and alleys screaming "NATO!" when they attack the Russians or are they screaming "Glory to Ukraine!" ? They're fighting because they were invaded. They're also involved in negotiations. During those negotiations, Ukraine has said they will accept neutrality and give up on trying to become part of NATO. We're the ones saying that's unacceptable. If that is what Ukraine is willing to agree to to settle the conflict, then why are we the ones saying no dice even though we are balking on a security guarantee? Same as it ever was for the past 30 years; we've learned absolutely nothing. Our policy and our stance re: Ukraine's negotiations; that's what I'm addressing and what you're avoiding. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 12, 2022 16:39:08 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 13, 2022 15:16:36 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 14, 2022 13:46:59 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 18, 2022 15:26:08 GMT
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 18, 2022 20:24:43 GMT
It's quite likely that with millions of woman and children who were forced to flee, or be targeted, raped and killed by russians....and the countless ukranian men who stayed behind to defend their country, and are being killing by russians led by putin, that putin will get in the end which he has clearly stated he has wanted all along...ukraine back under soviet era satellite status... there is nothing left of the country...
putin is no different than a bully who beats the living daylights out of a blind paraplegic in the schoolyard...
putin and his russian people will remain the outcasts of much of the world for years to come...and yes, I know there will be some fellow bullys who will still sit with him at lunch...
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 18, 2022 20:44:19 GMT
It's quite likely that with millions of woman and children who were forced to flee, or be targeted, raped and killed by russians....and the countless ukranian men who stayed behind to defend their country, and are being killing by russians led by putin, that putin will get in the end which he has clearly stated he has wanted all along...ukraine back under soviet era satellite status... there is nothing left of the country... Except pretty much everything you're seeing runs counter to that, in particular the shift of forces away from other parts of Ukraine to focus on Donas. Seems pretty evident that Russia trying to secure its hold on this region rather than taking all of Ukraine. Whether or not you think that was his original aim, circumstances on the ground have clearly changed. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 19, 2022 15:33:10 GMT
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 19, 2022 16:09:30 GMT
It's quite likely that with millions of woman and children who were forced to flee, or be targeted, raped and killed by russians....and the countless ukranian men who stayed behind to defend their country, and are being killing by russians led by putin, that putin will get in the end which he has clearly stated he has wanted all along...ukraine back under soviet era satellite status... there is nothing left of the country... Except pretty much everything you're seeing runs counter to that, in particular the shift of forces away from other parts of Ukraine to focus on Donas. Seems pretty evident that Russia trying to secure its hold on this region rather than taking all of Ukraine. Whether or not you think that was his original aim, circumstances on the ground have clearly changed. He has already decimated the country and ever major city across the country east to west. The fact he has failed at capturing the capital and must now focus efforts where he has supply lines closer to home does not negate what he has done and what he hoped to do. And just where will the millions and millions return to. Rubble He could have simply waged war in that region if that’s what he wanted. And claiming 14k died over 6-7 years was war if beyond ridiculous. That the murder rate in a couple us cities over that period. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 19, 2022 16:22:48 GMT
He has already decimated the country and ever major city across the country east to west. The fact he has failed at capturing the capital and must now focus efforts where he has supply lines closer to home does not negate what he has done and what he hoped to do. And just where will the millions and millions return to. Rubble You said Putin will get what he wants in the end, which is Ukraine as a satellite state. Except, he's shifting his focus on Donbas, and any hope of Ukraine being a Russian satellite state a la the Soviet Union is clearly out the window. Anytime anyone addresses some point you make, you then try to move the goalposts. Lots of trench warfare going on in U.S. cities? Lots of ceasefires? Just because there isn't a sufficient body count for you doesn't make it any less of a war. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 19, 2022 16:39:13 GMT
I still believe that is what he wants. In the long run
The brutal war he has waged across the entire country would support this.
Especially when combined with what he has said for decades
And why ignore the 1994 agreement Russia was part of.
Step one is do you agree Ukraine as it has been is a sovereign nation. Simple yes or no. Or can nations attack others if they only end up taking a chunk they want.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 19, 2022 16:47:38 GMT
I still believe that is what he wants. In the long run The brutal war he has waged across the entire country would support this. Especially when combined with what he has said for decades Whether or not that's what he wants, the situation on the ground has changed and that's not what he's going to get and Russia seems to recognize that. Who's ignoring it? It's been discussed ad nauseam on this forum. Do you have some particular reason for bringing it up in this conversation? The latter is plainly obvious whether we recognize Ukraine's sovereignty or not. They can and do throughout all of human history. The world is fundamentally in an anarchic state, despite all the talk about rules based orders, etc. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 19, 2022 16:53:54 GMT
Not the world. Some people.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 19, 2022 17:09:37 GMT
Not the world. Some people. Yes, the world is in an anarchic state, i.e., there are competing states with no world sovereign to arbitrate conflicts. Has been this way throughout human history and will likely be until the end of time. The world is essentially in a state of nature, a la Hobbes or Rousseau. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 20, 2022 16:25:53 GMT
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 21, 2022 2:13:49 GMT
Not the world. Some people. Yes, the world is in an anarchic state, i.e., there are competing states with no world sovereign to arbitrate conflicts. Has been this way throughout human history and will likely be until the end of time. The world is essentially in a state of nature, a la Hobbes or Rousseau. As I’ve said many times here. You are an academic. No real world experience. It’s clear from your posts. You are asked simple questions and you post someone else’s ores for 500 years ago. Usually off the mark and irrelevant. You are the character professor in back to school. Cute textbook comments. Able to post quotes. But completely clueless in real world life and experience. Meanwhile thousands are being exterminated. Real people. Lives lost. Just send some more quotes. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 21, 2022 13:42:34 GMT
As I’ve said many times here. You are an academic. No real world experience. It’s clear from your posts. You are asked simple questions and you post someone else’s ores for 500 years ago. Usually off the mark and irrelevant. You are the character professor in back to school. Cute textbook comments. Able to post quotes. But completely clueless in real world life and experience. Meanwhile thousands are being exterminated. Real people. Lives lost. Just send some more quotes. I'm not an academic; I just read. And this response is just you just flailing about. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 21, 2022 15:02:12 GMT
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