petep
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Post by petep on Apr 6, 2022 19:57:28 GMT
And it's also easy for you to want a 'negotiated settlement' when it isn't you that is the one losing anything. What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what? can we please stop with this notion that ukranians go to bed at night waiting for what the US will tell them to do tomorrow... what they know is russia is brutally attacking them, killing unarmed women and children, destroying their cities and homes...they are pissed and they are fighting for their homes, country and lives....period honestly, you sound like the people in california and new york who in the 80's and 90's blamed africa's aids crisis on the popes position on condoms.... |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 19:59:33 GMT
can we please stop with this notion that ukranians go to bed at night waiting for what the US will tell them to do tomorrow... what they know is russia is brutally attacking them, killing unarmed women and children, destroying their cities and homes...they are pissed and they are fighting for their homes, country and lives....period honestly, you sound like the people in california and new york who in the 80's and 90's blamed africa's aids crisis on the popes position on condoms.... Non sequitur much? |
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 6, 2022 20:05:34 GMT
can we please stop with this notion that ukranians go to bed at night waiting for what the US will tell them to do tomorrow... what they know is russia is brutally attacking them, killing unarmed women and children, destroying their cities and homes...they are pissed and they are fighting for their homes, country and lives....period honestly, you sound like the people in california and new york who in the 80's and 90's blamed africa's aids crisis on the popes position on condoms.... Non sequitur much? you wrote: What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them Just because you read the term non sequitor doesn't mean you should use it 20x a day.... what I wrote applies perfectly to this thread, and every other post you make more or less alleging and implying ukraine is acting somehow on our orders to them and our desires for them. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 20:17:04 GMT
you wrote: What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them Because we are encouraging that. I only use it when it's applicable, such as in your case. It doesn't apply to anything, except the crap you make up. No one said Ukraine is acting on our orders. What I was specifically talking about is administration officials - particularly the SecDef - saying the terms regarding neutrality are not acceptable. Why? Are we going to let them into NATO? Are we going to provide them with a security guarantee? When Ukraine proposed that as part of the current negotiations, we said: "We are in constant discussion with Ukrainians about ways that we can help ensure that they are sovereign and secure. But there is nothing specific about security guarantees that I can speak to at this time." We've been playing this game since 1994, and we should stop playing it. Do you want to actually address what I wrote now, or go back to making stuff up? |
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 6, 2022 20:28:41 GMT
the absolute most stupid position I have seen posted to date is we should have taken the ability for ukraine to join nato now or any time in the future....
you might as well have invited russia to invade...
yet you've never asked why the other nato nations have not been attacked? Let me guess...they dont have nazis and drug dealers...
its like telling a bully before a fight I promise I wont use my hands or feet, or anything else that may cause you harm - in fact, let me cuff myself now so you know I'm serious....now how much of my money did you say you want...
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 20:32:34 GMT
the absolute most stupid position I have seen posted to date is we should have taken the ability for ukraine to join nato now or any time in the future.... you might as well have invited russia to invade... Putting Ukraine in limbo by neither making them a NATO member nor telling them no was inviting an invasion. It was the worst possible policy. They had no protection and couldn't assert neutrality, so they might as well have been staked out as bait. And this current position is just a continuation of that policy, i.e., we're opposed to them declaring neutrality while also not committing to a security guarantee. Why haven't Finland or Sweden or Austria been attacked? But since you asked about NATO, why didn't we give Ukraine a MAP back in 2008 or before? Why did we not put a real security guarantee in the Budapest Memorandum (independent of NATO)? These are the questions you apparently find uncomfortable asking and answering. Why why might that be? |
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 6, 2022 23:23:43 GMT
And it's also easy for you to want a 'negotiated settlement' when it isn't you that is the one losing anything. What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what? Demos, I admire your commitment to peace - I do. But I vehemently disagree with you here. Russia is clearly the aggressor here, and given the apparent behavior of their soldiery in areas under their control, removes, IMO, any terms for the end of this conflict other than total withdraw. |
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Post by Lomelis on Apr 7, 2022 3:21:27 GMT
What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what? Demos, I admire your commitment to peace - I do. But I vehemently disagree with you here. Russia is clearly the aggressor here, and given the apparent behavior of their soldiery in areas under their control, removes, IMO, any terms for the end of this conflict other than total withdraw. How is that accomplished? |
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 7, 2022 10:06:03 GMT
Demos, I admire your commitment to peace - I do. But I vehemently disagree with you here. Russia is clearly the aggressor here, and given the apparent behavior of their soldiery in areas under their control, removes, IMO, any terms for the end of this conflict other than total withdraw. How is that accomplished? How do you think, drone? |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 7, 2022 13:42:41 GMT
Demos, I admire your commitment to peace - I do. But I vehemently disagree with you here. Russia is clearly the aggressor here, and given the apparent behavior of their soldiery in areas under their control, removes, IMO, any terms for the end of this conflict other than total withdraw. Well, sanctions and sending Ukraine weapons isn't going to achieve that, imo. So, first, I think we have to be realistic about what can be achieved since we're not willing to risk a direct conflict. Second, whatever the end result (even assuming a total withdrawal), you still have to devise some way to prevent it from happening again, and through successive administrations - Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama and Biden - the U.S. has been averse to providing Ukraine with a security commitment. Thus, saying that Ukrainian neutrality is unacceptable (to us) is ridiculous. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 7, 2022 14:57:09 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 7, 2022 15:49:14 GMT
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Post by Lomelis on Apr 8, 2022 8:11:46 GMT
How is that accomplished? How do you think, drone? I'm asking you. How are they forced to withdraw without any terms? |
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 8, 2022 10:50:50 GMT
I'm asking you. How are they forced to withdraw without any terms? Poor Shitbag....so desperate because he is being destroyed by a 'half-wit'. They are certainly capable of taking their shit and leaving on their own, 'logistics' guy. And of they can't support that movement, leave their equipment as reparations. The terms should be simple: 'pack your shit and leave....and then turn over the living bodies of the relevant unit commanders accused of war crimes to the ICC for trial'. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 8, 2022 15:10:47 GMT
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Post by Lomelis on Apr 9, 2022 3:21:59 GMT
I'm asking you. How are they forced to withdraw without any terms? Poor Shitbag....so desperate because he is being destroyed by a 'half-wit'. They are certainly capable of taking their shit and leaving on their own, 'logistics' guy. And of they can't support that movement, leave their equipment as reparations. The terms should be simple: 'pack your shit and leave....and then turn over the living bodies of the relevant unit commanders accused of war crimes to the ICC for trial'. Focus NeanderThor. Yes they could simply choose to leave on their own. Duh. The question is how do we -force- them to do so? |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 10, 2022 17:50:33 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 11, 2022 20:07:04 GMT
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Post by Lomelis on Apr 12, 2022 2:29:16 GMT
I'm curious as to if that chat actually was really tough and unfriendly. |
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Post by VYPR on Apr 12, 2022 5:31:37 GMT
And it's also easy for you to want a 'negotiated settlement' when it isn't you that is the one losing anything. What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what? Ummm, perhaps the Ukrainians are fighting for their own right to self-determination regardless of NATO membership, etc.? Or do you just assume they are mindless slaves to NATO and the west willing to believe anything they are told? You know, it's just POSSIBLE that they don't want the damn Russians dictating their government or affairs and are willing to fight for that. I sense a resentment and general anger from some here, shown in different ways, for how this has been turning out. As though Russia was a welcome and useful counter to western power and ambitions and their total fucking up of this thing with Ukraine has not only made that position much harder to push, it has upended the much desired down-spiral that the west and NATO seemed to be engaged in for the last 20 years. This idea that Ukraine only fights because of some NATO dream is pathetic. Are those people in the fields and alleys screaming "NATO!" when they attack the Russians or are they screaming "Glory to Ukraine!" ? They aren't fighting and dying for NATO, they are fighting and dying for their country and their families. |
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