demos
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Post by demos on Mar 3, 2022 15:38:16 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 3, 2022 15:50:11 GMT
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Greg55_99
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Post by Greg55_99 on Mar 3, 2022 15:51:56 GMT
I have little expectation this will go anywhere.
Greg
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 16:12:07 GMT
I have little expectation this will go anywhere. Greg
If it doesn't, odds are high that, absent US/EU/NATO involvement, Ukraine loses and becomes part of Russia.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 16:31:21 GMT
Watching Zelenskyy speaking to media live right now... Looks like it may not work out well for Ukraine.
It is hard to follow the translation, but from what I am hearing, it sounds like he is criticizing the world, including the US. He says he has asked Biden for a no fly zone.
He sounds interested in continuing to pursue being in NATO. He also sounds interested in keeping Ukraine whole.
So it doesn't sound like he is interested in some of the ideas I think will help end this. His idea is for US/NATO to come in militarily and put down the threat.
Though, since he knows this is very public in front of the media, there is a good chance this is just posturing and "negotiating" through the media. Probably a valid strategy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2022 16:49:15 GMT
Watching Zelenskyy speaking to media live right now... Looks like it may not work out well for Ukraine. It is hard to follow the translation, but from what I am hearing, it sounds like he is criticizing the world, including the US. He says he has asked Biden for a no fly zone. He sounds interested in continuing to pursue being in NATO. He also sounds interested in keeping Ukraine whole. So it doesn't sound like he is interested in some of the ideas I think will help end this. His idea is for US/NATO to come in militarily and put down the threat. Though, since he knows this is very public in front of the media, there is a good chance this is just posturing and "negotiating" through the media. Probably a valid strategy. My concern is still ... what happens to the idea of democracy as the Western world watches Ukraine choked and dying "for democracy" while Western governments stand by and simply place bets in their stock markets. The idea that average citizens will understand this complex issue can be easily dispelled by simply reading these boards or twitter or I assume facebook. Or any news articles written by biased and self interested partisans masquerading as journalists. We're watching a snuff film. And these people think we're watching part 1 of some heroic epic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2022 16:51:43 GMT
Holy shit. One of the responses to demos' OP.
I wonder why the people of Poland didn't just do this in 1939. Were they stupid?
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 16:56:51 GMT
Watching Zelenskyy speaking to media live right now... Looks like it may not work out well for Ukraine. It is hard to follow the translation, but from what I am hearing, it sounds like he is criticizing the world, including the US. He says he has asked Biden for a no fly zone. He sounds interested in continuing to pursue being in NATO. He also sounds interested in keeping Ukraine whole. So it doesn't sound like he is interested in some of the ideas I think will help end this. His idea is for US/NATO to come in militarily and put down the threat. Though, since he knows this is very public in front of the media, there is a good chance this is just posturing and "negotiating" through the media. Probably a valid strategy. My concern is still ... what happens to the idea of democracy as the Western world watches Ukraine choked and dying "for democracy" while Western governments stand by and simply place bets in their stock markets. The idea that average citizens will understand this complex issue can be easily dispelled by simply reading these boards or twitter or I assume facebook. Or any news articles written by biased and self interested partisans masquerading as journalists. We're watching a snuff film. And these people think we're watching part 1 of some heroic epic.
There is only so much hope that can be provided by attacking Putin as a monster and reports about the accomplishments of the Ukrainian fighters, when the bombing, etc. is increasing. Negotiations may be the only real hope, absent the US or others making this into a major military conflict.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 16:59:26 GMT
Holy shit. One of the responses to demos' OP.
I wonder why the people of Poland didn't just do this in 1939. Were they stupid?
That Natasha Bertrand comment makes my exact point that I have been making.
Absent negotiations that give Putin something he wants (or major western military involvement) Putin will get what he wants through the completion of this invasion.
He will just take it. All of it. Or, negotiations might be able to keep a neutral, sovereign Ukraine in existence.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 3, 2022 17:17:40 GMT
he should ask that they get rid of all nuclear weapons, and perhaps russia, great britan and the us and ukraine can all agree to ukraines future safety...
wait, they had done that one in 1994...
I'm sure this will be a special agreement...
this is simple...stop attacking and killing and destroying, get your troops moving out in the next 24 hours or the sanctions will continue for the next 5 years...and they will get worse...
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 17:21:54 GMT
he should ask that they get rid of all nuclear weapons, and perhaps russia, great britan and the us and ukraine can all agree to ukraines future safety... wait, they had done that one in 1994... I'm sure this will be a special agreement... this is simple...stop attacking and killing and destroying, get your troops moving out in the next 24 hours or the sanctions will continue for the next 5 years...and they will get worse...
The response to that will be to ignore it and continue to take more cities and bomb Kyiv.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Mar 3, 2022 18:15:10 GMT
I have little expectation this will go anywhere. Greg
As you predicted:
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 3, 2022 18:24:34 GMT
I have little expectation this will go anywhere. Greg No, this ain't going nowhere. You invade my country and want me to disarm and don't want other countries to supply me with weapons. That is some dumb shit.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 3, 2022 18:25:48 GMT
I have little expectation this will go anywhere. Greg
If it doesn't, odds are high that, absent US/EU/NATO involvement, Ukraine loses and becomes part of Russia.
Yeah, disarm Ukraine and see what happens. Putin is just making more excuses for his invasion.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 3, 2022 18:28:56 GMT
My concern is still ... what happens to the idea of democracy as the Western world watches Ukraine choked and dying "for democracy" while Western governments stand by and simply place bets in their stock markets. The idea that average citizens will understand this complex issue can be easily dispelled by simply reading these boards or twitter or I assume facebook. Or any news articles written by biased and self interested partisans masquerading as journalists. We're watching a snuff film. And these people think we're watching part 1 of some heroic epic.
There is only so much hope that can be provided by attacking Putin as a monster and reports about the accomplishments of the Ukrainian fighters, when the bombing, etc. is increasing. Negotiations may be the only real hope, absent the US or others making this into a major military conflict.
Yeah, surrender Ukraine. All hope is gone.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 3, 2022 18:33:40 GMT
Holy shit. One of the responses to demos' OP.
I wonder why the people of Poland didn't just do this in 1939. Were they stupid?
That Natasha Bertrand comment makes my exact point that I have been making.
Absent negotiations that give Putin something he wants (or major western military involvement) Putin will get what he wants through the completion of this invasion.
He will just take it. All of it. Or, negotiations might be able to keep a neutral, sovereign Ukraine in existence.
Putin wants Ukraine and he will take it. He can't be trusted with negotiations. The Ukrainian people will continue to fight, whether he takes it or not. sanctions will continue and both the Ukrainian people and many in Russia will continue to oppose Putin's goals. This is a lose, lose situation. Putin needs to pack up his troops and weapons and go the hell home.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2022 18:38:24 GMT
That Natasha Bertrand comment makes my exact point that I have been making.
Absent negotiations that give Putin something he wants (or major western military involvement) Putin will get what he wants through the completion of this invasion.
He will just take it. All of it. Or, negotiations might be able to keep a neutral, sovereign Ukraine in existence.
Putin wants Ukraine and he will take it. He can't be trusted with negotiations. The Ukrainian people will continue to fight, whether he takes it or not. sanctions will continue and both the Ukrainian people and many in Russia will continue to oppose Putin's goals. This is a lose, lose situation. Putin needs to pack up his troops and weapons and go the hell home.
Yeah. Probly not. And in the face of the West's escalations, recalcitrance and refusal to negotiate on Putin's concerns, and with China's support, once Putin crushes Ukrainian resistance he just might start to threaten the neighboring countries pinning down NATO troops as China moves on Taiwan.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 18:41:22 GMT
If it doesn't, odds are high that, absent US/EU/NATO involvement, Ukraine loses and becomes part of Russia.
Yeah, disarm Ukraine and see what happens. Putin is just making more excuses for his invasion. I don't see how this is a response to the post you quoted. Why do you think all hope is gone? Without a reason to - beyond the platitudes, some of which you have listed in this post - he isn't going to do that. There needs to be a reason.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 3, 2022 18:41:33 GMT
Putin wants Ukraine and he will take it. He can't be trusted with negotiations. The Ukrainian people will continue to fight, whether he takes it or not. sanctions will continue and both the Ukrainian people and many in Russia will continue to oppose Putin's goals. This is a lose, lose situation. Putin needs to pack up his troops and weapons and go the hell home.
Yeah. Probly not. And in the face of the West's escalations, recalcitrance and refusal to negotiate on Putin's concerns, and with China's support, once Putin crushes Ukrainian resistance he just might start to threaten the neighboring countries pinning down NATO troops as China moves on Taiwan.
China is not going to give Russia a dime to fight its wars. China considers Taiwan as a part of China and leaves it the fuck alone.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 3, 2022 18:43:15 GMT
Yeah. Probly not. And in the face of the West's escalations, recalcitrance and refusal to negotiate on Putin's concerns, and with China's support, once Putin crushes Ukrainian resistance he just might start to threaten the neighboring countries pinning down NATO troops as China moves on Taiwan.
China is not going to give Russia a dime to fight its wars. China considers Taiwan as a part of China and leaves it the fuck alone.
I think China would absolutely love to have Russia in debt to them. It is what they do.
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