bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 20, 2020 13:38:00 GMT
Actually, it's worse than that, because in 1860, the US had roughly 10% of the population it has today. So extrapolating 160 years forward, and using the same percentages, the current slave population would be roughly 40 million people in chains and bondage, which is roughly the population of California. That's staggering. Plus, nobody should make their argument contingent on defending the people of Oklahoma. They call themselves Sooners, for crissake. And they choose to live in, of all places, Oklahoma. That's the place where we sent native Americans (who weren't even fit to be slaves) to die. Even some Progressives shouldn't mind owning an Oklahoman or two, if the price was right. That's cute. So if the standard is ownership of anyone who enables the genocide of other human beings, where do we go to buy our very own abortion supporter?
For now, I'd suggest Oklahoma.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 20, 2020 14:26:52 GMT
Isn't that how you leftists think of the innocent children killed during every one of the 2000+ abortions that occur today? I guess it's OK as long as the dehumanization is approved by liberals. Southerners never came close to that kind of evil. Nope.
You're still full of SHIT.
Why don't you just run back to your safe space?
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 20, 2020 14:36:14 GMT
You are quite welcome to erect monuments to any of history's dregs on your own property but not on public property.. Why is this so hard for the poorly bred to understand? Because they ignant white trash?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 15:10:24 GMT
These tortured apologetics for slave owners and their racist allies is a doomed project. Give it up. This is coming from someone who has read these arguments and found them half-way convincing in their youthful ignorance. But the more you study you will see these narratives collapse when confronted with indisputable historical facts. The confederacy fought, first and foremost, to preserve their slave system. And the "state's rights" meme is a joke. The slave states were pissed that some free states wouldn't enforce the fugitive slave act. So much for the right of the states to set their own course. The southern states didn't give two shits about federalism or decentralized political power. They wanted a powerful federal state that forced the free states to support slavery - a moral sin. Its all a cover for racism and hatred. Don't get it twisted.
It is just not true that the Confederacy fought "to preserve their slave system". The fight was over secession, which occurred because of the increasingly tyrannical role of the federal government and the loss of the right of the states to exercise powers reserved to them.
The fight was over secession and secession happened because the southern states wanted a totalitarian federal government to enforce slavery against the wishes of free states. Ergo it was fought over slavery, not states rights, or some nebulous or abstract right to secede. You walk right up to the point, then make an abrupt hard right for some odd reason.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 15:21:47 GMT
These tortured apologetics for slave owners and their racist allies is a doomed project. Give it up. This is coming from someone who has read these arguments and found them half-way convincing in their youthful ignorance. But the more you study you will see these narratives collapse when confronted with indisputable historical facts. The confederacy fought, first and foremost, to preserve their slave system. And the "state's rights" meme is a joke. The slave states were pissed that some free states wouldn't enforce the fugitive slave act. So much for the right of the states to set their own course. The southern states didn't give two shits about federalism or decentralized political power. They wanted a powerful federal state that forced the free states to support slavery - a moral sin. Its all a cover for racism and hatred. Don't get it twisted.
No one is denying that slavery was the igniter of the conflagration, but was only a symptom not the cause. In 1832 during the Nullification the symptoms was tariffs, not slavery, but the core issue was the same: federal totalitarianism vs. state control except in very limited and delegated matters.
TL, your lack of historical knowledge is showing. You should have studied harder. The South was adhering to the Constitution, not denying another state's powers, when they asked that the Fugitive Slave act be enforced:
No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due. - Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution
Oops. Every state agreed to that provision of the Constitution prior to 1860. Every. single. state. An argument can be made that it was the North that first broke the agreement by failing to live up to what they agreed to. Like abortion today, this provision was evil, but still the agreed upon law of the land.
Well, there ya go. Clearly, you admit this was about the southern states getting upset about the exercise of the northern state's right to local rule which directly threatened the slave system. You've heard of the constitutional doctrine of nullification. Consider what the northern states did to slavery and the fugitive slave act as nullification of a bad federal law. The south said, "no, northern states, you cannot have home rule or state's rights. We want an overarching federal government to implement a one-sized-fits-all rule. And if we don't get it, we are taking our ball and going home." What you need to realize about article IV and its relevance to this case is that the northern states got to a place where many people no longer believed you could rightfully own another person, or that a slave would have any duty to his "master." But notice what we are discussing here: the importance of slavery to the civil war.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 20, 2020 15:22:12 GMT
The fight was over secession and secession happened because the southern states wanted a totalitarian federal government to enforce slavery against the wishes of free states. Ergo it was fought over slavery, not states rights, or some nebulous or abstract right to secede. You walk right up to the point, then make an abrupt hard right for some odd reason.
Perhaps he's just lost, looking for his conservative/racist safe space?
I can help with that:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 15:24:44 GMT
The fight was over secession and secession happened because the southern states wanted a totalitarian federal government to enforce slavery against the wishes of free states. Ergo it was fought over slavery, not states rights, or some nebulous or abstract right to secede. You walk right up to the point, then make an abrupt hard right for some odd reason.
Perhaps he's just lost, looking for his conservative/racist safe space?
I can help with that:
I think he identifies with the southern cause, hates black people, feels they are naturally inferior, and wants to reclaim the narrative that the southern racist slavers were the good guys here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 14:44:56 GMT
Perhaps he's just lost, looking for his conservative/racist safe space?
I can help with that:
I think he identifies with the southern cause, hates black people, feels they are naturally inferior, and wants to reclaim the narrative that the southern racist slavers were the good guys here. Even if that's not what he truly believes ... he's broadcasting that message. He's one of the reasons Trump loses this year. I heard "conservatism's" (what has become of it) death rattle watching Trump's speech last night. And there's a reason it's coming on the heels of the Floyd protests.
Because guys like this, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it's unintentional ... but they keep reinforcing how truly racist people who disagree are.
Queshank
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 21, 2020 15:00:54 GMT
Well I doubt it was anything like that but the option did exist. I'm one of those who believes that the south had a right to peacefully secede but I acknowledge that they tried to do it over primarily a very shitty reason. Paleo will ignore that about 1/3 of the CSA directly stated that the primary reason was over slavery in their declarations of secession. He will ignore that all the leaders of the secessionist movements in all the other states that did not directly say so in their declarations of secession or lack there of also specifically claimed slavery was the primary reason. There are numerous speeches from all those guys from all those states. It's one of those close your eyes and plugging your ears type of things. Is that really any different than you ignoring all of the other reasons why the South seceded legally? And if secession is legal as you acknowledge, any reason or no reason at all is legitimate. I didn't ignore the other issues that led to the war at all. I focused merely on the primary issue which you were outright denying. Look, they seceded because they wanted the "freedom" to enslave people, to be able to do anything they want to them. Murder, rape, mutilate was all good because it was their property. There was nothing noble about their rebellion.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jun 21, 2020 15:27:44 GMT
Saw this this morning. Haven't had a chance to read it yet... Source
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 21, 2020 21:17:43 GMT
Saw this this morning. Haven't had a chance to read it yet... SourceEerily like Trump, with his talk about "domination"...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 22:25:42 GMT
I think he identifies with the southern cause, hates black people, feels they are naturally inferior, and wants to reclaim the narrative that the southern racist slavers were the good guys here. Even if that's not what he truly believes ... he's broadcasting that message. He's one of the reasons Trump loses this year. I heard "conservatism's" (what has become of it) death rattle watching Trump's speech last night. And there's a reason it's coming on the heels of the Floyd protests.
Because guys like this, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it's unintentional ... but they keep reinforcing how truly racist people who disagree are.
Queshank
This post made me go and watch that speech - something I wouldn't normally do. And I have to say I think you are right. That was truly horrible. He spent so much time explaining watergait and little trying to address the big issues facing us. I saw a man who doesn't want to be president anymore. That said I did enjoy seeing him throw that glass of water. That was cute.
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robth
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Post by robth on Jun 22, 2020 2:57:56 GMT
Is Mount Rushmore safe? Jefferson was a slave holder as was Washington (I think).
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 22, 2020 3:15:18 GMT
Is Mount Rushmore safe? Jefferson was a slave holder as was Washington (I think). I say we add Barack Obama to Mt. Rushmore and go forward from there. Deal?
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Post by Fiddler on Jun 22, 2020 3:15:38 GMT
Is Mount Rushmore safe? Jefferson was a slave holder as was Washington (I think). Neither Jefferson nor Washington was an enemy of the United States. They were not traitors.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 22, 2020 3:25:11 GMT
Is Mount Rushmore safe? Jefferson was a slave holder as was Washington (I think). Neither Jefferson nor Washington was an enemy of the United States. They were not traitors. If we declare Mt. Rushmore to be a degenerate counter-revolutionary relic, and bulldoze it, will only enemies of the state still watch North by Northwest? And if so, will those watchers then become the new revolutionaries?
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 22, 2020 3:27:25 GMT
Is Mount Rushmore safe? Jefferson was a slave holder as was Washington (I think). Neither Jefferson nor Washington was an enemy of the United States. They were not traitors. Actually, the British did consider them to be traitors. But they got over it.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 22, 2020 3:30:13 GMT
Neither Jefferson nor Washington was an enemy of the United States. They were not traitors. Actually, the British did consider them to be traitors. But they got over it.
Was drawing and quartering still a British punishment for treason then?
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Post by phillip on Jun 22, 2020 3:51:38 GMT
Imagine over 150 years later, still being this desperate to defend traitorous losers.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 22, 2020 5:47:27 GMT
Imagine over 150 years later, still being this desperate to defend traitorous losers. What they are defending is people as property.
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