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Post by Greg55_99 on Jun 22, 2020 20:48:41 GMT
Oh dear. It was ONLY 4% of the African slaves were brought here. BUT, when they got here 100% of them remained slaves. You do embrace these teeny tiny percentages. Such comfort they give you.
Greg
Facts do tend to interrupt the perpetual victimhood of certain riotous groups nowadays, don't they? And what's with you anyway? I'm saying that I'm saddened that slavery was ever allowed here. It was evil. Was that not clear to you? I was saying that with the smaller number of Africans brought here meant that it would have been possible for those early settlers to forgo slavery altogether, to forever keep that scourge out of America. But greed, especially the greed of the rich, maintained and expanded the evil of slavery. It always seems to be about money, doesn't it.
But whether or not you like it, only 500,000 Africans were ever brought here, not millions.
Oh, such comfort you take in such small numbers. ONLY 500,000 were brought here you say. Yet, 250 years later they numbered 3.9 MILLION. Does THAT number give you any comfort? Greg |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 0:10:48 GMT
It's the world we've always lived in. Surely you're aware by now facts don't matter? That they have nothing to do with politics and never have? The only thing Trump contributed to this dynamic is a refusal to play pretend like the rest do.
Queshank Again, I am not defending slavery nor would I ever do so, but I will defend the underlying facts that complicate and add contradictory layers to a narrative made simple BY political considerations. Slavery was evil, a horrible stain on all of us; I truly wish that it had never been brought to these shores. We could have prevented it; only 4% of African slaves were brought here, but our collective greed was too great. Still is.
I wanna point out, I've never thought you were a racist or thought you were defending slavery a single time in this thread. I have very good friends ... good people and non racists as well ... who make the same arguments you've made in this thread. We focus on where we agree and agree to disagree on the stuff that doesn't matter anymore. Usually. But this isn't a fight you are going to win. You're trying to push a boulder, covered in baby oil and thorns, up a 90 degree incline. Every history professor I've ever had ... and I've had a few ... agrees with all of the points you're making or at least acknowledges some of the details are murky through the dirty lens of history. I've heard every argument you've made here a few times in the past 30 years. Many people in the South believed many different things. They weren't a monolith anymore than everyone that voted Trump is a big fan of tariffs. But every one of those professors ... even an Evangelical (I'm sure Trump supporting) ancient history professor I took several classes from ... still acknowledges that without slavery the Civil War simply would not have happened. Because that's just a fact. When you hitch your "state's rights" wagon to a "racist and oppressive" horse, you don't get to say "Yeah but I'm all about the wagon!" Without the horse, that wagon wasn't going anywhere. Queshank |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 0:52:51 GMT
Again, I am not defending slavery nor would I ever do so, but I will defend the underlying facts that complicate and add contradictory layers to a narrative made simple BY political considerations. Slavery was evil, a horrible stain on all of us; I truly wish that it had never been brought to these shores. We could have prevented it; only 4% of African slaves were brought here, but our collective greed was too great. Still is.
I wanna point out, I've never thought you were a racist or thought you were defending slavery a single time in this thread. I have very good friends ... good people and non racists as well ... who make the same arguments you've made in this thread. We focus on where we agree and agree to disagree on the stuff that doesn't matter anymore. Usually. But this isn't a fight you are going to win. You're trying to push a boulder, covered in baby oil and thorns, up a 90 degree incline. Every history professor I've ever had ... and I've had a few ... agrees with all of the points you're making or at least acknowledges some of the details are murky through the dirty lens of history. I've heard every argument you've made here a few times in the past 30 years. Many people in the South believed many different things. They weren't a monolith anymore than everyone that voted Trump is a big fan of tariffs. But every one of those professors ... even an Evangelical (I'm sure Trump supporting) ancient history professor I took several classes from ... still acknowledges that without slavery the Civil War simply would not have happened. Because that's just a fact. When you hitch your "state's rights" wagon to a "racist and oppressive" horse, you don't get to say "Yeah but I'm all about the wagon!" Without the horse, that wagon wasn't going anywhere. Queshank Ooh, baby oil AND thorns. Sounds about right. Like my Southern ancestors, a hopeless battle is still worth fighting if the cause is right. Thermopylae comes to mind. But I think that you clearly understand why all of this is labelled as our "lost cause".
We'll have to agree to disagree on whether secession and war would have happened without the slavery component. I'm guessing that a potential coalition of seceding states would have been more fractured if the root cause was tariffs or some other power usurpation (i.e. 1832 when only South Carolina was threatening secession). But if a few states seceded over a subject unrelated to slavery and the president of that time acted like Lincoln did, calling for 75,000 volunteers, I'm guessing several more states would have also joined the exodus, resulting in another Confederacy of sorts. More importantly, without slavery, the Europeans would have been involved much sooner, eager to recognize and aid the seceded states.
Wouldn't that make for an interesting take on alternative history? If you're curious what might have happened had the South won, read "Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove. Get past the ridiculous sci-fi of South African time travelers bringing AK-47s to Lee's Army, Turtledove's analysis of the likely results of a Southern victory is pretty thought provoking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 0:56:16 GMT
Facts do tend to interrupt the perpetual victimhood of certain riotous groups nowadays, don't they? And what's with you anyway? I'm saying that I'm saddened that slavery was ever allowed here. It was evil. Was that not clear to you? I was saying that with the smaller number of Africans brought here meant that it would have been possible for those early settlers to forgo slavery altogether, to forever keep that scourge out of America. But greed, especially the greed of the rich, maintained and expanded the evil of slavery. It always seems to be about money, doesn't it.
But whether or not you like it, only 500,000 Africans were ever brought here, not millions.
Oh, such comfort you take in such small numbers. ONLY 500,000 were brought here you say. Yet, 250 years later they numbered 3.9 MILLION. Does THAT number give you any comfort? Greg Looks like they were "comfortable" procreating, unlike most of the millions that wound up somewhere besides North America. But again, you misunderstand. I'm making it clear how much I despise slavery by saying that America had a small enough number of slaves early on that its spread could have been prevented. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jun 23, 2020 19:47:08 GMT
Not about Confederate statues, but about statues generally; this made me chuckle...
Apparently, she doesn't know how iconoclastic Muslims are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 19:51:34 GMT
Not about Confederate statues, but about statues generally; this made me chuckle... Apparently, she doesn't know how iconoclastic Muslims are. Indeed. Erecting the statues would get you death threats, not tearing them down. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 19:53:25 GMT
Not about Confederate statues, but about statues generally; this made me chuckle... Apparently, she doesn't know how iconoclastic Muslims are. Demos, for some reason I can't see a link to go to on your post. Can you post again? |
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demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
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Post by demos on Jun 23, 2020 19:55:10 GMT
Demos, for some reason I can't see a link to go to on your post. Can you post again? Sure thing. Let's see if this will work: link. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 20:07:17 GMT
Demos, for some reason I can't see a link to go to on your post. Can you post again? Sure thing. Let's see if this will work: link. Yeah, I got it that time. By the way, concerning the Tweet that she was responding to, has Shaun King looked in the mirror lately?
Oops.
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,096
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 23, 2020 20:46:53 GMT
Facts do tend to interrupt the perpetual victimhood of certain riotous groups nowadays, don't they? And what's with you anyway? I'm saying that I'm saddened that slavery was ever allowed here. It was evil. Was that not clear to you? I was saying that with the smaller number of Africans brought here meant that it would have been possible for those early settlers to forgo slavery altogether, to forever keep that scourge out of America. But greed, especially the greed of the rich, maintained and expanded the evil of slavery. It always seems to be about money, doesn't it.
But whether or not you like it, only 500,000 Africans were ever brought here, not millions.
Oh, such comfort you take in such small numbers. ONLY 500,000 were brought here you say. Yet, 250 years later they numbered 3.9 MILLION. Does THAT number give you any comfort? Greg
Traditional racists will grasp at any straw to maintain their safe space.
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,096
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 23, 2020 20:49:53 GMT
Not about Confederate statues, but about statues generally; this made me chuckle... Apparently, she doesn't know how iconoclastic Muslims are. Indeed. Erecting the statues would get you death threats, not tearing them down.
Yup.
Tends to prove that racists think the way they do in large part out of ignorance. Involuntary or willful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 21:04:44 GMT
Indeed. Erecting the statues would get you death threats, not tearing them down.
Yup.
Tends to prove that racists think the way they do in large part out of ignorance. Involuntary or willful.
The Tweet was from a black woman. |
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