bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Jun 22, 2020 6:07:06 GMT
Imagine over 150 years later, still being this desperate to defend traitorous losers. What they are defending is people as property. The rich own the poor. |
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Post by william on Jun 22, 2020 13:51:12 GMT
I think one of my college professors said it best when he put it this way: "There were many things that led to the Civil War. But remove slavery from the equation and the Civil War doesn't happen. Slavery was the only irreconcilable difference."
Personally I'll be joining in on any toppling of statues in my neck of the woods. I might actually initiate said toppling if I stumble across one in my local travels.
People who claim to love history so much have had ample time to move these artifacts of history to a place designed for such reverence ... like a museum. They didn't want to move them willingly, proving their reverence wasn't for history. Now they're going to be moved forcefully.
Queshank
Yeah, that take seems right on the money to me. Slavery was the essential element. Everything else was incidental. I am with you on supporting this. Doesn't bother me a bit. If people really care, they will do as you say and move these things to a museum. And then there is opportunity for additional context. I think its funny that republicans like to remind the left that it was democrats who owned slaves, etc yet they are the first to scream "muh heritage" the moment those CSA statues are the threatened. I made it through page 1 and agree mostly with Q and TL, but I don't agree with the so much of the criticism of the Confederacy as murderers and traitors. Judging the past using today's values doesn't ever lead to an accurate understanding of the past. I have a hard time finding hate for those who were torn between patriotism for their state and the federal government. the statues were erected in the early 20th century to express sympathy for the lost cause and to promote white superiority - tear them all down or move to a museum - they represent hate. Would we still be fighting the Civil War if Lincoln had pulled out of Sumpter and Pickens and allowed the South to go their own way - into a world that was finally accepting the evil of slavery? Look at the many countries that did it without a war for some idea of where we would be now had we not gone to war. There's a lot that doesn't fit the narrative of the left or right. Much of New York City was built by slaves and the northern states continued to track down and return slaves trying to get to Canada during the early part of the war. New Jersey was finally forced to free their slaves in 1866, thanks to the 13th. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 13:58:23 GMT
Isn't that how you leftists think of the innocent children killed during every one of the 2000+ abortions that occur today? I guess it's OK as long as the dehumanization is approved by liberals. Southerners never came close to that kind of evil. Nope.
You're still full of SHIT.
Why don't you just run back to your safe space?
Struck yet another nerve, didn't I. The left has no moral standing on the 150 year old issue of slavery while gleefully celebrating the dehumanization of innocent unborn children. Abortion is far, far worse than all of slavery throughout history, genocide on a scale that might have even made Stalin and Mao blush.
But instead of an intelligent response, all I get is the nonsense above. It's as if I've cast my pearls before swine and the porker doens't have a clue how to respond.
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Post by william on Jun 22, 2020 14:02:46 GMT
Imagine over 150 years later, still being this desperate to defend traitorous losers. This is what I mean. I fail to understand anyone still defending slavery. I also fail to understand calling the brave patriots "traitorous losers" because they fought for their state. That said, if I lived then and was anything like I was in 1967, no way I would have fought for either side. But more likely I would have had a 19th century attitude and answered the draft in my state. Everyone here probably would have done the same. |
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Post by william on Jun 22, 2020 14:04:59 GMT
Nope.
You're still full of SHIT.
Why don't you just run back to your safe space?
Struck yet another nerve, didn't I. The left has no moral standing on the 150 year old issue of slavery while gleefully celebrating the dehumanization of innocent unborn children. Abortion is far, far worse than all of slavery throughout history, genocide on a scale that might have even made Stalin and Mao blush.
But instead of an intelligent response, all I get is the nonsense above. It's as if I've cast my pearls before swine and the porker doens't have a clue how to respond.
You are an idiot. You always have been and always will be undeserving of any more of a response. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:08:30 GMT
It is just not true that the Confederacy fought "to preserve their slave system". The fight was over secession, which occurred because of the increasingly tyrannical role of the federal government and the loss of the right of the states to exercise powers reserved to them.
The fight was over secession and secession happened because the southern states wanted a totalitarian federal government to enforce slavery against the wishes of free states. Ergo it was fought over slavery, not states rights, or some nebulous or abstract right to secede. You walk right up to the point, then make an abrupt hard right for some odd reason. I've made a clear, indisputable case that the war was not about slavery, but about the rights of the states to exercise the powers that they retained without federal government intrusion and for all states to abide by the agreement related to federal responsibilities and state responsibilities toward each other.
And once again, I've shown that secession made the escaped slave situation impossibly worse; if it was really about slavery, secession gave the "free states" what THEY wanted. They no longer had any obligation to return ANY slave to the South.
How the flaming hell was Southern secession about slavery if it was a win for the North and a loss for the South?
Oops.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:12:00 GMT
Paleocon, I see you're out there still campaigning for Joe Biden. Good on ya.
Queshank
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:21:14 GMT
No one is denying that slavery was the igniter of the conflagration, but was only a symptom not the cause. In 1832 during the Nullification the symptoms was tariffs, not slavery, but the core issue was the same: federal totalitarianism vs. state control except in very limited and delegated matters.
TL, your lack of historical knowledge is showing. You should have studied harder. The South was adhering to the Constitution, not denying another state's powers, when they asked that the Fugitive Slave act be enforced:
No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due. - Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution
Oops. Every state agreed to that provision of the Constitution prior to 1860. Every. single. state. An argument can be made that it was the North that first broke the agreement by failing to live up to what they agreed to. Like abortion today, this provision was evil, but still the agreed upon law of the land.
Well, there ya go. Clearly, you admit this was about the southern states getting upset about the exercise of the northern state's right to local rule which directly threatened the slave system. You've heard of the constitutional doctrine of nullification. Consider what the northern states did to slavery and the fugitive slave act as nullification of a bad federal law. The south said, "no, northern states, you cannot have home rule or state's rights. We want an overarching federal government to implement a one-sized-fits-all rule. And if we don't get it, we are taking our ball and going home." What you need to realize about article IV and its relevance to this case is that the northern states got to a place where many people no longer believed you could rightfully own another person, or that a slave would have any duty to his "master." But notice what we are discussing here: the importance of slavery to the civil war. You're kidding with this inane garbage, right? The Northern states AGREED to the Article IV when they ratified the Constitution! If you want to call what they did "nullification", that means that they nullified their original promise to abide by the Constitution THAT THEY SIGNED, thus violating the agreement, which is sufficient cause for the South to seek secession over state's right's and abrogation of the agreement
Show me where nullification is allowed under the Constitution, especially since this was not just some federal law but an agreement by ALL of the states and codified in the Constitution itself.
Logic's just not your thing, is it?
Just as abortion is the law of the land today despite a strong moral opposition to the left's dehumanization and slaughter of children, Article IV was the law of the land then. Do you therefore support this "right" of nullification if a state doesn't like abortion?
Oops, again.
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Post by Fiddler on Jun 22, 2020 14:30:59 GMT
Nope.
You're still full of SHIT.
Why don't you just run back to your safe space?
Struck yet another nerve, didn't I. The left has no moral standing on the 150 year old issue of slavery while gleefully celebrating the dehumanization of innocent unborn children. Abortion is far, far worse than all of slavery throughout history, genocide on a scale that might have even made Stalin and Mao blush.
But instead of an intelligent response, all I get is the nonsense above. It's as if I've cast my pearls before swine and the porker doens't have a clue how to respond.
Poor boy .. Been fun watching you get your ass handed to you with the same facts I gave you months ago.. Not surprised given how easily this information is to come by ..
BTW: That's "doesn't have a clue" but the reality is it seems you're the one sans clue. 
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:31:55 GMT
Perhaps he's just lost, looking for his conservative/racist safe space?
I can help with that:
I think he identifies with the southern cause, hates black people, feels they are naturally inferior, and wants to reclaim the narrative that the southern racist slavers were the good guys here. None of that is true. It's obvious from that drivel that our alleged "great forum thinker" is actually incapable of intelligent thought or discussion on this topic. I would suggest that you stop "thinking" before you hurt yourself. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:40:12 GMT
Struck yet another nerve, didn't I. The left has no moral standing on the 150 year old issue of slavery while gleefully celebrating the dehumanization of innocent unborn children. Abortion is far, far worse than all of slavery throughout history, genocide on a scale that might have even made Stalin and Mao blush.
But instead of an intelligent response, all I get is the nonsense above. It's as if I've cast my pearls before swine and the porker doens't have a clue how to respond.
You are an idiot. You always have been and always will be undeserving of any more of a response. If that was addressed to me, how do you consider that to be an intelligent response?
I'll say it again. Abortion is many times worse than all of slavery throughout history. And I can back that up with facts.
Say when.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:41:37 GMT
Struck yet another nerve, didn't I. The left has no moral standing on the 150 year old issue of slavery while gleefully celebrating the dehumanization of innocent unborn children. Abortion is far, far worse than all of slavery throughout history, genocide on a scale that might have even made Stalin and Mao blush.
But instead of an intelligent response, all I get is the nonsense above. It's as if I've cast my pearls before swine and the porker doens't have a clue how to respond.
Poor boy .. Been fun watching you get your ass handed to you with the same facts I gave you months ago.. Not surprised given how easily this information is to come by ..
BTW: That's "doesn't have a clue" but the reality is it seems you're the one sans clue. 
You've provided lots of laughs, but never facts. Don't pretend that you've added anything substantive to this discussion unless you want to hear more laughter. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 14:53:44 GMT
I think he identifies with the southern cause, hates black people, feels they are naturally inferior, and wants to reclaim the narrative that the southern racist slavers were the good guys here. Even if that's not what he truly believes ... he's broadcasting that message.
He's one of the reasons Trump loses this year. I heard "conservatism's" (what has become of it) death rattle watching Trump's speech last night. And there's a reason it's coming on the heels of the Floyd protests.
Because guys like this, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it's unintentional ... but they keep reinforcing how truly racist people who disagree are.
Queshank
What kind of sick, perverted leftist world do we live in when idiots perceive the whole truth to be racist? I've laid out the fact that the story of that time was far more complex and nuanced than is portrayed by the morons and animals responsible for the latest riots. For that, I'm dishonestly branded as a heretic and a racist.
Ironically, my accusers are people pretending to fight intolerance by being intolerant, pretending to be open minded while trashing those who flesh out an incomplete narrative.
Would you agree to collectively condemn and dismiss the BLM protesters and their cause when a few were shown to be evil? Would you assign the motivations of the evil few to the entire movement? I'm betting that you wouldn't, but you sure as hell don't have any compunction against doing so with the Confederacy.
A despicable double standard seems to be a chronic disease among the leftists today.
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Post by Fiddler on Jun 22, 2020 14:56:35 GMT
Poor boy .. Been fun watching you get your ass handed to you with the same facts I gave you months ago.. Not surprised given how easily this information is to come by ..
BTW: That's "doesn't have a clue" but the reality is it seems you're the one sans clue.
You've provided lots of laughs, but never facts. Don't pretend that you've added anything substantive to this discussion unless you want to hear more laughter.
LMAO .. Oh no. I've purposely kept out of it. Everyone was doing such a great job destroying your little racist delusions.. Been there .. Done that ..
I suggest to save face you delete your posts and pretend this never happened..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:02:23 GMT
Even if that's not what he truly believes ... he's broadcasting that message.
He's one of the reasons Trump loses this year. I heard "conservatism's" (what has become of it) death rattle watching Trump's speech last night. And there's a reason it's coming on the heels of the Floyd protests.
Because guys like this, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it's unintentional ... but they keep reinforcing how truly racist people who disagree are.
Queshank
What kind of sick, perverted leftist world do we live in when idiots perceive the whole truth to be racist? It's the world we've always lived in. Surely you're aware by now facts don't matter? That they have nothing to do with politics and never have? The only thing Trump contributed to this dynamic is a refusal to play pretend like the rest do.
Queshank |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:06:50 GMT
You've provided lots of laughs, but never facts. Don't pretend that you've added anything substantive to this discussion unless you want to hear more laughter.
LMAO .. Oh no. I've purposely kept out of it. Everyone was doing such a great job destroying your little racist delusions.. Been there .. Done that ..
I suggest to save face you delete your posts and pretend this never happened..
No, after our previous encounters, you knew better than to step into it. And look again, I've not defended slavery once, nor would I. It was an evil scourge that should never have occurred in this country. But I won't stand back while some PC idiots paint the entire era with that broad brush when the facts say otherwise.
Simpletons like simple narratives; they get very uncomfortable when the whole truth shows a far more complex narrative. So, what do the simpletons so? They call dishonestly call me racist to stifle a debate that they are losing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:19:21 GMT
What kind of sick, perverted leftist world do we live in when idiots perceive the whole truth to be racist? It's the world we've always lived in. Surely you're aware by now facts don't matter? That they have nothing to do with politics and never have? The only thing Trump contributed to this dynamic is a refusal to play pretend like the rest do.
Queshank Excellent point, likely better than any that I have posted. I guess I'm a bit of a rebel after all, because I fight to make sure that the facts are heard, even if they don't matter. The very fact that Trump resisted political fiction that causes such ignorance is a good reason why we continue to support him, warts and all.
Again, I am not defending slavery nor would I ever do so, but I will defend the underlying facts that complicate and add contradictory layers to a narrative made simple BY political considerations. Slavery was evil, a horrible stain on all of us; I truly wish that it had never been brought to these shores. We could have prevented it; only 4% of African slaves were brought here, but our collective greed was too great. Still is.
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Post by Greg55_99 on Jun 22, 2020 16:06:07 GMT
It's the world we've always lived in. Surely you're aware by now facts don't matter? That they have nothing to do with politics and never have? The only thing Trump contributed to this dynamic is a refusal to play pretend like the rest do.
Queshank Excellent point, likely better than any that I have posted. I guess I'm a bit of a rebel after all, because I fight to make sure that the facts are heard, even if they don't matter. The very fact that Trump resisted political fiction that causes such ignorance is a good reason why we continue to support him, warts and all.
Again, I am not defending slavery nor would I ever do so, but I will defend the underlying facts that complicate and add contradictory layers to a narrative made simple BY political considerations. Slavery was evil, a horrible stain on all of us; I truly wish that it had never been brought to these shores. We could have prevented it; only 4% of African slaves were brought here, but our collective greed was too great. Still is.
Oh dear. It was ONLY 4% of the African slaves were brought here. BUT, when they got here 100% of them remained slaves. You do embrace these teeny tiny percentages. Such comfort they give you.
Greg
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 18:59:20 GMT
Excellent point, likely better than any that I have posted. I guess I'm a bit of a rebel after all, because I fight to make sure that the facts are heard, even if they don't matter. The very fact that Trump resisted political fiction that causes such ignorance is a good reason why we continue to support him, warts and all.
Again, I am not defending slavery nor would I ever do so, but I will defend the underlying facts that complicate and add contradictory layers to a narrative made simple BY political considerations. Slavery was evil, a horrible stain on all of us; I truly wish that it had never been brought to these shores. We could have prevented it; only 4% of African slaves were brought here, but our collective greed was too great. Still is.
Oh dear. It was ONLY 4% of the African slaves were brought here. BUT, when they got here 100% of them remained slaves. You do embrace these teeny tiny percentages. Such comfort they give you.
Greg
Facts do tend to interrupt the perpetual victimhood of certain riotous groups nowadays, don't they? And what's with you anyway? I'm saying that I'm saddened that slavery was ever allowed here. It was evil. Was that not clear to you? I was saying that with the smaller number of Africans brought here meant that it would have been possible for those early settlers to forgo slavery altogether, to forever keep that scourge out of America. But greed, especially the greed of the rich, maintained and expanded the evil of slavery. It always seems to be about money, doesn't it.
But whether or not you like it, only 500,000 Africans were ever brought here, not millions.
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 22, 2020 19:18:34 GMT
Struck yet another nerve, didn't I. The left has no moral standing on the 150 year old issue of slavery while gleefully celebrating the dehumanization of innocent unborn children. Abortion is far, far worse than all of slavery throughout history, genocide on a scale that might have even made Stalin and Mao blush.
But instead of an intelligent response, all I get is the nonsense above. It's as if I've cast my pearls before swine and the porker doens't have a clue how to respond.
You are an idiot. You always have been and always will be undeserving of any more of a response. If that.
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