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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 17:56:22 GMT
Yes. Everyone must suffer. No one can make it a profit ever. Must completely crash economy so that we starve to death. That is the right thing to do. This is the standard Right-wing and Libertarian strawman about centre Left ideas. The issue isn't whether or not a profit is made. The issue is the justice surrounding the distribution of those profits. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 18:22:37 GMT
Yes. Everyone must suffer. No one can make it a profit ever. Must completely crash economy so that we starve to death. That is the right thing to do. This is the standard Right-wing and Libertarian strawman about centre Left ideas. The issue isn't whether or not a profit is made. The issue is the justice surrounding the distribution of those profits. My comment isn't about centre left ideas as a whole, it is directed almost entirely at Odd's ideas about how the economy works. Basically he's clueless. The justice? Are they stealing from others or something? I'm curious as to how the distribution of those profits has become unjust. It seems that the economic crash caused by idiotic government shutdowns of the world wide economy has positioned large mega multinational corporations to better profit from the loss of competition. More distribution of wealth to the top while nearly everyone else is having to cut back is the direct result of poor government policy and intervention. Those companies and their owners aren't doing the pillaging. That is the result of government. I have no desire to give more power to the government that is causing the problems to do even more to "fix" them. If your mechanic blows up your engine the correct response isn't to bring him more business in the hopes that maybe he'll get it right next time, or next time, or next time...over and over. At some point you've got to learn that mechanic has no fucking clue what he's doing and it's time to stop giving him more engines to blow up. |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 27, 2020 18:45:54 GMT
I keep getting told in UK that I'm some form of inhuman monster for wondering why we just trashed the economy over something that is only 1.5 or 2 x a normal bad 'flu year.... I also ask where's the cutoff between the 30k UK deaths from 'flu a couple of Winters ago (economy not shut dow. Nothing in the media) and the projected 100k from Covid19 (economy shut down. Rolling hysteria) .... is it 35k? 50k? How will we decide?
Perhaps this will help you decide: Unlike the flu, covid19 is quite deadly to certain age and health groups. It could be argued that due to its extreme communicability, allowing it to spread uncontained in the rest of society, it is tantamount to a death sentence for our elderly, immune compromised, those with respiratory issues, etc. And hence refusal by various segments of the younger, healthier population results in something approaching involuntary manslaughter, especially when they know better. We do have the ability to lessen and even prevent this scourge from killing more. The question is, are we human enough to exercise that ability?
You think we can make this virus go extinct before a herd immunity is developed? Through extreme social distancing for many years? That’s bonkers. |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 27, 2020 18:49:53 GMT
Good Lord you people are so stupid.
The fix for worse health outcomes due to loss of employer sponsored health care during an economic downturn is...
A NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE WITH UNIVERSAL COVERAGE
DUH!
Ah. Got it. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 18:53:24 GMT
Perhaps this will help you decide: Unlike the flu, covid19 is quite deadly to certain age and health groups. It could be argued that due to its extreme communicability, allowing it to spread uncontained in the rest of society, it is tantamount to a death sentence for our elderly, immune compromised, those with respiratory issues, etc. And hence refusal by various segments of the younger, healthier population results in something approaching involuntary manslaughter, especially when they know better. We do have the ability to lessen and even prevent this scourge from killing more. The question is, are we human enough to exercise that ability?
You think we can make this virus go extinct before a herd immunity is developed? Through extreme social distancing for many years? That’s bonkers.
I heard this rumor that viral diseases can be prevented with vaccines that prevent infection.
Sounds too good to be true, so of course it isn't true.
Or so the Right would have us believe.
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Post by freonbale on Jun 27, 2020 18:56:18 GMT
Well, now you are going to get it. The scared little Karens are going to tell you what a horrible person you are for pointing out that A) government was wrong, B) science was wrong and C) COVID-19 may not be super dangerous. I'm sticking by the predictions (not mine) that the infection mortality rate will be less than 0.20%. So does this mean you choose not to wear a mask when you go out?
Freon
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 27, 2020 18:56:23 GMT
You think we can make this virus go extinct before a herd immunity is developed? Through extreme social distancing for many years? That’s bonkers.
I heard this rumor that viral diseases can be prevented with vaccines that prevent infection.
Sounds too good to be true, so of course it isn't true.
Or so the Right would have us believe.
How long till we have a vaccine for the novel coronavirus. The economy would need a precise date in order to value investments and the like. Thanks. |
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 19:02:36 GMT
I heard this rumor that viral diseases can be prevented with vaccines that prevent infection.
Sounds too good to be true, so of course it isn't true.
Or so the Right would have us believe.
How long till we have a vaccine for the novel coronavirus. The economy would need a precise date in order to value investments and the like. Thanks.
I've heard no earlier than the end of the year.
Surely we can cope until then, if people behave themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 19:03:43 GMT
This is the standard Right-wing and Libertarian strawman about centre Left ideas. The issue isn't whether or not a profit is made. The issue is the justice surrounding the distribution of those profits. I'm curious as to how the distribution of those profits has become unjust. It seems that the economic crash caused by idiotic government shutdowns of the world wide economy has positioned large mega multinational corporations to better profit from the loss of competition. More distribution of wealth to the top while nearly everyone else is having to cut back is the direct result of poor government policy and intervention. Those companies and their owners aren't doing the pillaging. That is the result of government. I have no desire to give more power to the government that is causing the problems to do even more to "fix" them. This is the unavoidable conclusion one has to reach.
Large corporate conglomerates coordinated with state governments on these shutdowns. I'm not saying they are "deliberately" eradicating competition. But when you are negotiating with the state about how to get through something like this ... you don't worry about your competition that didn't get invited to the meeting. You worry about your shareholders.
And large corporate conglomerates bring far more negotiating and "donational" power to the conversation than a small boutique restaurant run by two 26 year old entrepreneurs who have now closed their restaurant they've worked their ass off to build for the past 6 years after 3 months of shutdowns bankrupted them.
But hey. I don't think my hometown has a Carl's Jr yet. So now there's room in the local market. Yay....
Those same large corporate conglomerates are right now ... as we speak ... coordinating with state and federal governments around the world to attack freedom of speech on social media. Something I've been consistently warning about since the EU started adopting Germany's NetzDG fucking *years* ago now ... as Europe warned about "fascists." (That's people who lean right and are angry with the cronyiness of their own governments using the democratic process in layman's terms....how fucking *dare* they...) Yale has even been warning about it. Is that "expert" enough for anybody to start listening yet? law.yale.edu/mfia/case-disclosed/germanys-netzdg-and-threat-online-free-speechWhat happens the next time a "dRumPf" is put in charge of this engine the Democrats are voluntarily submitting to the yoke over? An effective "dRumPf" as Demos stresses about? In Germany. In England. In Hungary. In Poland. Here in the states.
Queshank
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 27, 2020 19:18:39 GMT
How long till we have a vaccine for the novel coronavirus. The economy would need a precise date in order to value investments and the like. Thanks.
I've heard no earlier than the end of the year.
Surely we can cope until then, if people behave themselves.
Surely we can fuck over the poorest people and smallest businesses and the mentally unstable and the recovering substance abusers and the victims of domestic abuse and people who need treatments for non Covid illnesses. Gawd, people. Figure out how to behave. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 27, 2020 19:29:29 GMT
On edit, I just noticed my avatar, Thanks a bunch. I love it, and just told my husband to come see. You're welcome ... It seemed like it fit you ..  |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 19:43:18 GMT
I'm curious as to how the distribution of those profits has become unjust. It seems that the economic crash caused by idiotic government shutdowns of the world wide economy has positioned large mega multinational corporations to better profit from the loss of competition. More distribution of wealth to the top while nearly everyone else is having to cut back is the direct result of poor government policy and intervention. Those companies and their owners aren't doing the pillaging. That is the result of government. I have no desire to give more power to the government that is causing the problems to do even more to "fix" them. This is the unavoidable conclusion one has to reach.
Large corporate conglomerates coordinated with state governments on these shutdowns. I'm not saying they are "deliberately" eradicating competition. But when you are negotiating with the state about how to get through something like this ... you don't worry about your competition that didn't get invited to the meeting. You worry about your shareholders.
And large corporate conglomerates bring far more negotiating and "donational" power to the conversation than a small boutique restaurant run by two 26 year old entrepreneurs who have now closed their restaurant they've worked their ass off to build for the past 6 years after 3 months of shutdowns bankrupted them.
But hey. I don't think my hometown has a Carl's Jr yet. So now there's room in the local market. Yay....
Those same large corporate conglomerates are right now ... as we speak ... coordinating with state and federal governments around the world to attack freedom of speech on social media. Something I've been consistently warning about since the EU started adopting Germany's NetzDG fucking *years* ago now ... as Europe warned about "fascists." (That's people who lean right and are angry with the cronyiness of their own governments using the democratic process in layman's terms....how fucking *dare* they...) Yale has even been warning about it. Is that "expert" enough for anybody to start listening yet? law.yale.edu/mfia/case-disclosed/germanys-netzdg-and-threat-online-free-speechWhat happens the next time a "dRumPf" is put in charge of this engine the Democrats are voluntarily submitting to the yoke over? An effective "dRumPf" as Demos stresses about? In Germany. In England. In Hungary. In Poland. Here in the states.
Queshank
Yes. There is extreme cronyism. We can see that these shutdowns weren't really enforced directly on the average person. Ya there are instances where asshole cops are stopping people walking their dogs without a mask or what not, or Karens calling the cops and tattling, but for the most part they enforced the shutdown by regulating the businesses. The business regulatory structure and enforcement is so strong (especially in left leaning states like California) that they were able to effectively enforce the shutdown by forcing millions of small businesses to close (ultimately shutdown for good). The effect was that the newly classified degenerates of society, the unwanted and unneeded, the "non-essentials" had no where to go and thus had no reason to really leave home unless it was to visit an "essential" business that had worked out a deal. Those essential businesses would get to remain open (require masks, temp checks, social distancing, provide hand sanitizer, or whatever) and in return small time competition gets slaughtered because they can't meet the new standards. We haven't even seen the worst of it yet. There are still many small businesses that are attempting to open up, maybe even hoping that they can manage with less competition as well, but I'm sure there will be another round of something that will nail the coffin shut. I work for a massive company that has been making me wonder what they know (or what kind of deals they've been making) because they are still implementing even more stringent "safety" standards at work. 6 weeks ago started with temp checks (we were required to simply check ourselves before entering the building), then it went to required mask usage a couple weeks later, and now starting next week it will be some sort of thermal scan as we enter the building. All new hiring has been shutdown completely outside of essential production and customer service positions where turnover is higher. Executives took a pay cut (which doesn't mean much because of the stock options). All salaried (management) employees had their pay frozen and upper management had their 401K company match cutoff. I get the feeling they are preparing for another round of shutdowns. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 20:53:03 GMT
This is the unavoidable conclusion one has to reach.
Large corporate conglomerates coordinated with state governments on these shutdowns. I'm not saying they are "deliberately" eradicating competition. But when you are negotiating with the state about how to get through something like this ... you don't worry about your competition that didn't get invited to the meeting. You worry about your shareholders.
And large corporate conglomerates bring far more negotiating and "donational" power to the conversation than a small boutique restaurant run by two 26 year old entrepreneurs who have now closed their restaurant they've worked their ass off to build for the past 6 years after 3 months of shutdowns bankrupted them.
But hey. I don't think my hometown has a Carl's Jr yet. So now there's room in the local market. Yay....
Those same large corporate conglomerates are right now ... as we speak ... coordinating with state and federal governments around the world to attack freedom of speech on social media. Something I've been consistently warning about since the EU started adopting Germany's NetzDG fucking *years* ago now ... as Europe warned about "fascists." (That's people who lean right and are angry with the cronyiness of their own governments using the democratic process in layman's terms....how fucking *dare* they...) Yale has even been warning about it. Is that "expert" enough for anybody to start listening yet? law.yale.edu/mfia/case-disclosed/germanys-netzdg-and-threat-online-free-speechWhat happens the next time a "dRumPf" is put in charge of this engine the Democrats are voluntarily submitting to the yoke over? An effective "dRumPf" as Demos stresses about? In Germany. In England. In Hungary. In Poland. Here in the states.
Queshank
I work for a massive company that has been making me wonder what they know (or what kind of deals they've been making) because they are still implementing even more stringent "safety" standards at work. 6 weeks ago started with temp checks (we were required to simply check ourselves before entering the building), then it went to required mask usage a couple weeks later, and now starting next week it will be some sort of thermal scan as we enter the building. All new hiring has been shutdown completely outside of essential production and customer service positions where turnover is higher. Executives took a pay cut (which doesn't mean much because of the stock options). All salaried (management) employees had their pay frozen and upper management had their 401K company match cutoff. I get the feeling they are preparing for another round of shutdowns. This is exactly my experience as well. I work for a national conglomerate. Two days before Newsom shut down California we all had a meeting and were warned ahead of time of the coming closures. And we were given "papers" to keep in our car designating us as essential workers able to move freely. The next day my wife, who works at a bank, was given her papers as well. They're still in our glove compartment. Kinda creepy. Haven't had to use them, obviously. But then again, we're not in LA, we're in the central valley. (Nunes' district.)
Our parent corp knew California was shutting down 2 days before the news knew.
Recently our plant manager has been making the same noises. "We're headed for another shutdown. I know it." rhetoric. Nothing official. But he's on the phones with his bosses every day while we all meet every week trying to figure out how to keep from getting permanently shut down as we hemorrhage cash.
I'll go you one further. Part of my job is calling distributors. Gauging the health of their companies. Finding out who is working from home still, whether phone numbers and mailing addresses and receiving hours are back to normal. Every time it's like I lance a boil and then sit and listen for 10 to 15 minutes as anger, fear and confusion leak out.
The stories I am hearing every day ... that distributors tell about their customers and what's going on ... are grueling to listen to the past month. We are nowhere near the point where we're seeing the pain that's growing out there. The news sure isn't reporting it.
Queshank
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 21:34:21 GMT
I've heard no earlier than the end of the year.
Surely we can cope until then, if people behave themselves.
Surely we can fuck over the poorest people and smallest businesses and the mentally unstable and the recovering substance abusers and the victims of domestic abuse and people who need treatments for non Covid illnesses. Gawd, people. Figure out how to behave.
Indeed. Figure out how the small sacrifice of wearing a face mask in public and maintain social distance will save thousands of innocent lives.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 27, 2020 22:50:13 GMT
Surely we can fuck over the poorest people and smallest businesses and the mentally unstable and the recovering substance abusers and the victims of domestic abuse and people who need treatments for non Covid illnesses. Gawd, people. Figure out how to behave.
Indeed. Figure out how the small sacrifice of wearing a face mask in public and maintain social distance will save thousands of innocent lives.
No. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 23:39:14 GMT
Indeed. Figure out how the small sacrifice of wearing a face mask in public and maintain social distance will save thousands of innocent lives.
No.
Willful ignorance.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 28, 2020 2:59:17 GMT
Tax. And stop paying insurance companies. Same service. Much cheaper. Hospitals, GP surgeries, all the infrastructure is there already. Pay them via State and eliminate all the admin that's duplicated across multiple competitors. Set wages generously; remove shareholder costs. Worked in UK in 1948. Very expensive as a one off cost but much better and cheaper thereafter. Nationaise your healthcare. But what are they going to tax exactly? The tax base just got annihilated. The tax base and the people who need access to quality health care are the same people. If they can't afford better, less expensive nationalized coverage, then neither will they be able to afford worse, more expensive for profit health insurance, especially with all its former restrictions. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 28, 2020 5:39:52 GMT
But what are they going to tax exactly? The tax base just got annihilated. The tax base and the people who need access to quality health care are the same people. If they can't afford better, less expensive nationalized coverage, then neither will they be able to afford worse, more expensive for profit health insurance, especially with all its former restrictions.
Expected conservative crackpot response:
Forty percent of the adult population pays no federal income tax. Thus with universal health care they'd be getting something for nothing. They should die, instead.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 28, 2020 8:43:28 GMT
But what are they going to tax exactly? The tax base just got annihilated. The tax base and the people who need access to quality health care are the same people. If they can't afford better, less expensive nationalized coverage, then neither will they be able to afford worse, more expensive for profit health insurance, especially with all its former restrictions. What is to be done about the supply of services? Are you breaking up the health care cartel? More doctors? Because supply and demand is still a thing. Everything will just get cheaper and better with higher demand and the same supply. Just wish it so. |
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 28, 2020 9:43:40 GMT
The tax base and the people who need access to quality health care are the same people. If they can't afford better, less expensive nationalized coverage, then neither will they be able to afford worse, more expensive for profit health insurance, especially with all its former restrictions. What is to be done about the supply of services? Are you breaking up the health care cartel? More doctors? Because supply and demand is still a thing. Everything will just get cheaper and better with higher demand and the same supply. Just wish it so.
Why don't you research what doctors say about their profession in the USA: their biggest headache is navigating the crazy quilt of insurance plans, reimbursement, getting approved, etc etc etc. They have to devote considerable office space and staff to deal with PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE.
By and large, they'd much rather not have to deal with any of that. They'd rather be doing what they were trained to do: take care of their patients' health concerns.
Buy a clue.
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