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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 0:03:20 GMT
I keep getting told in UK that I'm some form of inhuman monster for wondering why we just trashed the economy over something that is only 1.5 or 2 x a normal bad 'flu year.... I also ask where's the cutoff between the 30k UK deaths from 'flu a couple of Winters ago (economy not shut dow. Nothing in the media) and the projected 100k from Covid19 (economy shut down. Rolling hysteria) .... is it 35k? 50k? How will we decide?
Perhaps this will help you decide: Unlike the flu, covid19 is quite deadly to certain age and health groups. It could be argued that due to its extreme communicability, allowing it to spread uncontained in the rest of society, it is tantamount to a death sentence for our elderly, immune compromised, those with respiratory issues, etc. And hence refusal by various segments of the younger, healthier population results in something approaching involuntary manslaughter, especially when they know better. We do have the ability to lessen and even prevent this scourge from killing more. The question is, are we human enough to exercise that ability?
Economic downturns shorten lives. The question is which is least bad: 1. 10% - 50% of the over 70s/sick who catch Covid dying over the next year or two 2. Statistically significant shortening of life for the current cohort of 20-60 somethings, especially in lower education/income brackets - over the next 10 - 30 years. That's maybe not quite the exact numbers but it encapsulates the political and moral question. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 0:09:45 GMT
Perhaps this will help you decide: Unlike the flu, covid19 is quite deadly to certain age and health groups. It could be argued that due to its extreme communicability, allowing it to spread uncontained in the rest of society, it is tantamount to a death sentence for our elderly, immune compromised, those with respiratory issues, etc. And hence refusal by various segments of the younger, healthier population results in something approaching involuntary manslaughter, especially when they know better. We do have the ability to lessen and even prevent this scourge from killing more. The question is, are we human enough to exercise that ability?
Economic downturns shorten lives. The question is which is least bad: 1. 10% - 50% of the over 70s/sick who catch Covid dying over the next year or two 2. Statistically significant shortening of life for the current cohort of 20-60 somethings, especially in lower education/income brackets - over the next 10 - 30 years. That's maybe not quite the exact numbers but it encapsulates the political and moral question.
You are providing zero evidence that an economic downturn is measurably shortening the lives of younger people. Perhaps because THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE?
On the flip side, the more Covid-19 is allowed to get out of control, the more people will be dying of other maladies, like TB, because health services are stretched too far.
Ever consider that, padre?
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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 0:12:50 GMT
For the "You'll be sorry when you're in an ICU!!" crowd. It's a very real possibility I could die to this virus. I'm going to be 50 this year. The last 8 years have not been kind to me. I've put on some weight in my 40s as I dealt with the stress of managing the family business. So as my wife tells me ... I'm a bit tubby these days. Add insult to injury, I moved to California to avoid my father's fate ... dying in a very covid way to an unknown lung condition the doctors speculated may be genetic. I got pneumonia twice in the winter of 2018/19. Plus ... I'm a daily pot smoker. I ain't slowin that shit down. If I'm going to die to the Rona, I ain't going out sober. What a bummer that would be. You guys finding out I'm dead in the next few months is a legitimate possibility. The shutdowns are still a form of suicide that this country will be struggling to recover from for years. My death won't change that one iota. These shutdowns were bad policy and a tremendous mistake that have done far more damage than the coronavirus. We havent begun to see the long term ramifications of this economic sabotage. Facts are facts whether I am dead or alive. Queshank If you die can I have your pot stash and any sundry valuables that your widow could airmail me (at the expense of your estate)? Thanks. My wife's home town used to have a steel works. Shut down in the 80s. Life expectancy there is several years lower now, adjusted for other factors, than in the 70s. We are doing that to everyone right this minute as I write. It's a political crime caused by the emptiness of the leadership larder. We don't have political leaders; generally that's a good thing... who really needs leading? We just need competent strategists, managers and diplomats. But we haven't got those, either. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 0:16:29 GMT
Because he is the President, a politician, and wealthy. Earth to Ody. How could you not know the answer to that question. But isn't protecting Trump violating the natural rights of everyone else around him? Why doesn't that outrage you as much as rules that mandate wearing masks in public outrage you? Wtf are you even babbling on about? Of course I'm outraged that the government chose to focus on protecting it's own over protecting the at risk. That's the whole point of my argument. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 0:17:39 GMT
Good Lord you people are so stupid.
The fix for worse health outcomes due to loss of employer sponsored health care during an economic downturn is...
A NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE WITH UNIVERSAL COVERAGE
DUH!
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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 0:18:29 GMT
Economic downturns shorten lives. The question is which is least bad: 1. 10% - 50% of the over 70s/sick who catch Covid dying over the next year or two 2. Statistically significant shortening of life for the current cohort of 20-60 somethings, especially in lower education/income brackets - over the next 10 - 30 years. That's maybe not quite the exact numbers but it encapsulates the political and moral question.
You are providing zero evidence that an economic downturn is measurably shortening the lives of younger people. Perhaps because THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE?
On the flip side, the more Covid-19 is allowed to get out of control, the more people will be dying of other maladies, like TB, because health services are stretched too far.
Ever consider that, padre?
Use a reputable Internet search engine; terms "effects economic downturn life expectancy" and see what you get. Don't forget to check the bona fides of the researchers. The Covid recession will shorten lives. Will that result in more lost life-years than a "herd immunity" approach? I don't know. Neither do you. It's the most important question in the whole tragedy. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 0:18:44 GMT
Economic downturns shorten lives. The question is which is least bad: 1. 10% - 50% of the over 70s/sick who catch Covid dying over the next year or two 2. Statistically significant shortening of life for the current cohort of 20-60 somethings, especially in lower education/income brackets - over the next 10 - 30 years. That's maybe not quite the exact numbers but it encapsulates the political and moral question. You are providing zero evidence that an economic downturn is measurably shortening the lives of younger people. Perhaps because THERE IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE? On the flip side, the more Covid-19 is allowed to get out of control, the more people will be dying of other maladies, like TB, because health services are stretched too far. Ever consider that, padre? 🤦🏻♂️☝️ That is more evidence that he has no clue what he's talking about. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 0:21:05 GMT
Good Lord you people are so stupid. The fix for worse health outcomes due to loss of employer sponsored health care during an economic downturn is...
A NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE WITH UNIVERSAL COVERAGE
DUH!
How do we pay for that now that ya'll crashed the economy? |
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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 0:31:47 GMT
Good Lord you people are so stupid. The fix for worse health outcomes due to loss of employer sponsored health care during an economic downturn is...
A NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE WITH UNIVERSAL COVERAGE
DUH!
How do we pay for that now that ya'll crashed the economy? Tax. And stop paying insurance companies. Same service. Much cheaper. Hospitals, GP surgeries, all the infrastructure is there already. Pay them via State and eliminate all the admin that's duplicated across multiple competitors. Set wages generously; remove shareholder costs. Worked in UK in 1948. Very expensive as a one off cost but much better and cheaper thereafter. Nationaise your healthcare. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 0:47:48 GMT
How do we pay for that now that ya'll crashed the economy? Tax. And stop paying insurance companies. Same service. Much cheaper. Hospitals, GP surgeries, all the infrastructure is there already. Pay them via State and eliminate all the admin that's duplicated across multiple competitors. Set wages generously; remove shareholder costs. Worked in UK in 1948. Very expensive as a one off cost but much better and cheaper thereafter. Nationaise your healthcare. But what are they going to tax exactly? The tax base just got annihilated. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 0:50:50 GMT
Tax. And stop paying insurance companies. Same service. Much cheaper. Hospitals, GP surgeries, all the infrastructure is there already. Pay them via State and eliminate all the admin that's duplicated across multiple competitors. Set wages generously; remove shareholder costs. Worked in UK in 1948. Very expensive as a one off cost but much better and cheaper thereafter. Nationaise your healthcare.
Yup.
So simple even morons can grasp it.
Maybe.
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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 1:39:54 GMT
Tax. And stop paying insurance companies. Same service. Much cheaper. Hospitals, GP surgeries, all the infrastructure is there already. Pay them via State and eliminate all the admin that's duplicated across multiple competitors. Set wages generously; remove shareholder costs. Worked in UK in 1948. Very expensive as a one off cost but much better and cheaper thereafter. Nationaise your healthcare. But what are they going to tax exactly? The tax base just got annihilated. |
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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 1:42:31 GMT
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 2:42:14 GMT
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Post by crepe05 on Jun 27, 2020 11:53:01 GMT
Ok, I skimmed through most of this, and all I can come up with during the however long time we've been dealing with covid, is hogwash. My Lord, when I was a kid, we worried about polio, measles, mumps, but we didn't fall apart with fear. We also were in the middle of fighting WWII, which was a bigger deal than any of the diseases. We were all aware that people died ...... from a lot of different things, some diseases, some not. Most of us used public transportation, and breathed and probably, on occasion, sneezed on one another. We received our information from the newspapers (my city had a morning and an evening paper), and my family got both. We also listened to the radio which was on all day. My point, if I have one, is that people have been fighting all sorts of things (and people) since time began which was actually before my time. Now it's this generations turn, and I can promise that after every one of us is dead, there will be other fights going on. Just teach your kids that life has problems and to deal with them as best they can and go on living for as long as they can. IMO, belief in some sort of higher power helps a lot. Just enjoy yourselves, which doesn't necessarily mean to be stupid. However, you may be stupid if you prefer.
On edit, I just noticed my avatar, Thanks a bunch. I love it, and just told my husband to come see.
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 27, 2020 14:35:18 GMT
Ok, I skimmed through most of this, and all I can come up with during the however long time we've been dealing with covid, is hogwash. My Lord, when I was a kid, we worried about polio, measles, mumps, but we didn't fall apart with fear. We also were in the middle of fighting WWII, which was a bigger deal than any of the diseases. We were all aware that people died ...... from a lot of different things, some diseases, some not. Most of us used public transportation, and breathed and probably, on occasion, sneezed on one another. We received our information from the newspapers (my city had a morning and an evening paper), and my family got both. We also listened to the radio which was on all day. My point, if I have one, is that people have been fighting all sorts of things (and people) since time began which was actually before my time. Now it's this generations turn, and I can promise that after every one of us is dead, there will be other fights going on. Just teach your kids that life has problems and to deal with them as best they can and go on living for as long as they can. IMO, belief in some sort of higher power helps a lot. Just enjoy yourselves, which doesn't necessarily mean to be stupid. However, you may be stupid if you prefer. On edit, I just noticed my avatar, Thanks a bunch. I love it, and just told my husband to come see. Yup, all you came up with is hogwash.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 14:42:14 GMT
The Karen's did not disappoint.
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 17:41:15 GMT
I'm not sure that pillaging the wealthy and the business owners is the best way to secure economic growth and prosperity. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jun 27, 2020 17:42:50 GMT
Yes. Everyone must suffer. No one can make it a profit ever. Must completely crash economy so that we starve to death. That is the right thing to do. |
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Post by limey² on Jun 27, 2020 17:51:41 GMT
I'm not sure that pillaging the wealthy and the business owners is the best way to secure economic growth and prosperity. Great film though. |
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