MojoJojo
Legend
Posts: 4,074
Member is Online
|
Post by MojoJojo on May 30, 2024 15:32:30 GMT
Meh, it was never an existential threat to the US.
To Ukraine? Absolutely!
To the rest of eastern Europe? It could easily become an existential threat, but not there yet.
That said, just because it doesn't immediately, and directly affects us, should we do nothing? Something?? If so, what?
Remaining silent and unsupportive will only encourage Putin, and Xi by extension. Doing something, anything! will illicit threats from Putin but also send the signal that invading a sovereign state still has a steep cost.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on May 30, 2024 15:37:32 GMT
Meh, it was never an existential threat to the US. Yeah, but that's not been the rhetoric.
However, the action has never matched the rhetoric (even in Europe which is more directly affected), and that tells you a lot.
I just hope that behind closed doors we've had more honest conversations with Ukraine and others about it.
|
|
MojoJojo
Legend
Posts: 4,074
Member is Online
|
Post by MojoJojo on May 30, 2024 16:39:11 GMT
Meh, it was never an existential threat to the US. Yeah, but that's not been the rhetoric. However, the action has never matched the rhetoric (even in Europe which is more directly affected), and that tells you a lot. I just hope that behind closed doors we've had more honest conversations with Ukraine and others about it.
Yeah, using disingenuous rhetoric to elicit support just sets up failure. If we don't stop the Commies in North Vietnam and they take the South, all of Asia will fall like dominos! If we don't stop the terrorists in the M/E, they'll attack us again and again. If we don't stop the spread of ISIS the whole area will succumb to radical Islam and be a base to attack the US! Why not just keep the hyperbolic rhetoric in check and lay out the facts, the possibilities, and the options for each?
|
|
queshank
Legend
Posts: 4,493
Member is Online
|
Post by queshank on May 30, 2024 16:51:45 GMT
Yeah, but that's not been the rhetoric. However, the action has never matched the rhetoric (even in Europe which is more directly affected), and that tells you a lot. I just hope that behind closed doors we've had more honest conversations with Ukraine and others about it.
Yeah, using disingenuous rhetoric to elicit support just sets up failure. If we don't stop the Commies in North Vietnam and they take the South, all of Asia will fall like dominos! If we don't stop the terrorists in the M/E, they'll attack us again and again. If we don't stop the spread of ISIS the whole area will succumb to radical Islam and be a base to attack the US! Why not just keep the hyperbolic rhetoric in check and lay out the facts, the possibilities, and the options for each? Because nobody supports war based on the facts. Nobody. Ever. In the history of the world.
Queshank
|
|
MojoJojo
Legend
Posts: 4,074
Member is Online
|
Post by MojoJojo on May 30, 2024 16:55:03 GMT
Yeah, using disingenuous rhetoric to elicit support just sets up failure. If we don't stop the Commies in North Vietnam and they take the South, all of Asia will fall like dominos! If we don't stop the terrorists in the M/E, they'll attack us again and again. If we don't stop the spread of ISIS the whole area will succumb to radical Islam and be a base to attack the US! Why not just keep the hyperbolic rhetoric in check and lay out the facts, the possibilities, and the options for each? Because nobody supports war based on the facts. Nobody. Ever. In the history of the world.
Queshank
With the noted exception of those being invaded I assume. The trouble with "it's not MY threat" is that lends itself perfectly to the divide and conquer strategy used by every expansionist regime, ever.
|
|
queshank
Legend
Posts: 4,493
Member is Online
|
Post by queshank on May 30, 2024 17:01:44 GMT
Because nobody supports war based on the facts. Nobody. Ever. In the history of the world.
Queshank
With the noted exception of those being invaded I assume. The trouble with "it's not MY threat" is that lends itself perfectly to the divide and conquer strategy used by every expansionist regime, ever.
Well ... why are people who don't want to fight being imprisoned and conscripted and forced "back to the front" (to quote Metallica?) if they want to fight?
And are you arguing that the Ukrainian govt was honest with its citizenry in the lead up to the escalation? Because that's a whole thread of disagreement waiting to start.
Queshank
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on May 30, 2024 20:19:45 GMT
IMPORTANT NEWS: Source
And now in other news...
Tanks:
Ammunition:
Air defenses:
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 2, 2024 14:49:56 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 3, 2024 17:19:24 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 4, 2024 15:47:37 GMT
Biden Time interview re: Ukraine and NATO: Source
Huh?
Overall, seems like he's saying that he doesn't support Ukraine joining. But who knows that might change in a few weeks.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 4, 2024 18:02:39 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 6, 2024 17:54:07 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 7, 2024 17:25:14 GMT
Source
Regarding the latter, see Biden's comments referenced in posts #s 1189 and 1190.
|
|
queshank
Legend
Posts: 4,493
Member is Online
|
Post by queshank on Jun 7, 2024 18:05:30 GMT
Mobilisation squads face hostility as Ukraine tries to boost army ranksWhen Pavlo Pimakhov and Yuriy Pikhota walk through the suburbs of Kyiv, men who spot them approaching from afar often turn on their heels and scurry off. The military uniforms, the police escort and the black folder tucked under Pikhota’s arm combine to make the pair immediately recognisable: they are one of the Ukrainian army’s mobilisation squads. These officers roam streets across Ukraine checking the papers of men and handing out military summonses, as Ukraine tries to boost the ranks of its army to continue the fight against Russia...
Source Is this what "supporting the war" looks like for the Ukrainian people?
Queshank
|
|
|
Post by Lomelis on Jun 8, 2024 21:34:55 GMT
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,094
|
Post by Odysseus on Jun 9, 2024 6:13:57 GMT
Source
Regarding the latter, see Biden's comments referenced in posts #s 1189 and 1190.
Fascinating!
|
|
queshank
Legend
Posts: 4,493
Member is Online
|
Post by queshank on Jun 9, 2024 16:02:05 GMT
Yeah! Where are they?
Oh...
The BBC recently reported that 650,000 Ukrainian men of fighting age fled the country in the past two years.
I wonder if it's because younger men are more able to spot state propaganda than the elderly?
Queshank
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 10, 2024 17:15:38 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 11, 2024 16:55:30 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,193
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Jun 11, 2024 17:02:19 GMT
Yeah! Where are they?...
I wonder if it's because younger men are more able to spot state propaganda than the elderly?
Queshank
On that...
"More than half of respondents over age 60 — 54 percent — said Ukraine is winning the war, while just 31 percent of those 18 to 25 believed so. Roughly 60 percent of the older group said that Ukraine should not negotiate for peace with Russia, compared to 47 percent of the younger cohort." ( Source)
|
|