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Post by Greg55_99 on Mar 7, 2022 16:11:59 GMT
Well, I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this point. My opinion is as always. This Nato thing was just another Putin smokescreen. A fundamental Russian redline for 30 years is a smoke screen? What do y'all think the invasion of Georgia was about in 2008? You can't just magically wave this away to suit the 'Putin is a madman' narrative. That we've ignored this as an issue since then is just ridiculous. And in the process, we put Ukraine in the worst of possible positions: we wouldn't admit them into NATO, but we wouldn't send the clear signal that they would remain out of NATO either. Nope, had to hold out the "open door." So what do you reckon his excuse will be when he rolls into Moldova? Greg |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 7, 2022 16:12:09 GMT
Well, I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this point. My opinion is as always. This Nato thing was just another Putin smokescreen. A fundamental Russian redline for 30 years is a smoke screen? What do y'all think the invasion of Georgia was about in 2008? You can't just magically wave this away to suit the 'Putin is a madman' narrative. That we've ignored this as an issue since then is just ridiculous. And in the process, we put Ukraine in the worst of possible positions: we wouldn't admit them into NATO, but we wouldn't send the clear signal that they would remain out of NATO either. Nope, had to hold out the "open door."
How else to get them to act as we want?
The term "client state" is often used to describe the relationship off Belarus with Russia. Of course our media wouldn't ever use that to describe Ukraine with regard to either the US, EU, etc., but doesn't it kind of fit?
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 7, 2022 16:14:10 GMT
A fundamental Russian redline for 30 years is a smoke screen? What do y'all think the invasion of Georgia was about in 2008? You can't just magically wave this away to suit the 'Putin is a madman' narrative. That we've ignored this as an issue since then is just ridiculous. And in the process, we put Ukraine in the worst of possible positions: we wouldn't admit them into NATO, but we wouldn't send the clear signal that they would remain out of NATO either. Nope, had to hold out the "open door." So what do you reckon his excuse will be when he rolls into Moldova? Greg
What do YOU reckon is the reason he hasn't?
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 7, 2022 16:16:54 GMT
So what do you reckon his excuse will be when he rolls into Moldova? Russia has had troops in Moldova since 1992. Funny how no one has really cared about that for the last 30 years huh. And Russia's justification for being there since 1992 has been another consistent one: "That rationale underpins Russia’s continued presence in Moldova’s breakaway province of Transnistria, where attempts to impose the Romanian language at the start of the 1990s were fiercely resisted by the region’s mainly Russian-speaking population. The same concept – protecting ethnic Russians – would later give Putin a blueprint to justify interventions in Georgia and Ukraine." ( Source) We've seen that issue come up quite a bit in the years since the Cold War, including in Kazakhstan where there is a large Russian minority. |
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Post by demos on Mar 8, 2022 15:59:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 17:17:37 GMT
I think Zelenskyy is finally seeing the writing on the wall.
The Western diplomats who told him they had his back led him down a primrose path.
Eventually even Vypr will have to admit he understands what I meant about our actions giving democracy a black eye.
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Post by demos on Mar 8, 2022 17:55:28 GMT
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 8, 2022 18:29:09 GMT
So it looks like we are on a path toward exactly what a few of us have been calling for, and probably could have had weeks ago before all the death, bloodshed, and destruction.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 18:39:40 GMT
Watch the herd start turning. It can be kinda fun. |
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Post by demos on Mar 8, 2022 18:49:16 GMT
So it looks like we are on a path toward exactly what a few of us have been calling for, and probably could have had weeks ago before all the death, bloodshed, and destruction. Some have pointed out this may end similarly to the Winter War, in which Finland successfully held off Soviet invasion but ultimately gave up some territory. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 18:59:39 GMT
So it looks like we are on a path toward exactly what a few of us have been calling for, and probably could have had weeks ago before all the death, bloodshed, and destruction. Some have pointed out this may end similarly to the Winter War, in which Finland successfully held off Soviet invasion but ultimately gave up some territory. The only flaw I'd see in that analysis is that Putin appears he may be getting everything he wanted before he started the war. Is that the same as the Winter War? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 19:00:42 GMT
Watch the herd start turning. It can be kinda fun.
And for a better note for those who can't quite see the herd yet ...
It's gonna start with rationalized articles by pundits about how they weren't actually wrong in encouraging Ukrainians to fight til their extinction and that wasn't really what they were doing ... and then trickle down thru the Holy Algorithm to the boards.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 8, 2022 19:09:54 GMT
The only flaw I'd see in that analysis is that Putin appears he may be getting everything he wanted before he started the war. Is that the same as the Winter War?Not sure. I would need to go and look at Soviet demands before their invasion. I thought it was an interesting comparison mainly because it's something besides 'This is WW2 and Putin is Hitler.' There is other history, even in the 20th Century. |
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Post by thor on Mar 8, 2022 19:13:45 GMT
So it looks like we are on a path toward exactly what a few of us have been calling for, and probably could have had weeks ago before all the death, bloodshed, and destruction. Some have pointed out this may end similarly to the Winter War, in which Finland successfully held off Soviet invasion but ultimately gave up some territory. That is a possibility. |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 8, 2022 19:43:23 GMT
The only flaw I'd see in that analysis is that Putin appears he may be getting everything he wanted before he started the war. Is that the same as the Winter War?Not sure. I would need to go and look at Soviet demands before their invasion. I thought it was an interesting comparison mainly because it's something besides 'This is WW2 and Putin is Hitler.' There is other history, even in the 20th Century. Hitler thought he had legitimate reasons to invade countries as well. Continue to make excuses for Putin. You are a real card |
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Post by demos on Mar 8, 2022 19:45:18 GMT
Hitler thought he had legitimate reasons to invade countries as well. Continue to make excuses for Putin. You are a real card Where is anyone making excuses for Putin? How about you come back when you actually learn something and can make a valuable contribution to the discussion. |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 8, 2022 19:47:06 GMT
Hitler thought he had legitimate reasons to invade countries as well. Continue to make excuses for Putin. You are a real card Where is anyone making excuses for Putin? How about you come back when you actually learn something and can make a valuable contribution to the discussion. I know far more than you |
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Post by demos on Mar 8, 2022 19:51:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2022 20:03:35 GMT
The only flaw I'd see in that analysis is that Putin appears he may be getting everything he wanted before he started the war. Is that the same as the Winter War?Not sure. I would need to go and look at Soviet demands before their invasion. I thought it was an interesting comparison mainly because it's something besides 'This is WW2 and Putin is Hitler.' There is other history, even in the 20th Century.
I'm not sure it could be accurately described as a 'failed invasion' if Russia walked away with everything they wanted in the first place. That's some fine historical spin if they did.
It kinda looks like Zelenskyy is playing both options a bit to see what happens. Goin' all Winston Churchill on the English parliament. (Hi Vypr.)
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 8, 2022 20:43:00 GMT
They say, idiots are the happiest people in the world |
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