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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2022 23:53:18 GMT
And as rhetoric and punishing actions heat up the rationalization for continuing down the line of countries heats up. "If we're severed from West altogether anyway, let the dice fly high glory be to Russia!"
These are called self fulfilling prophecies.
I wonder how wet Liz Cheney's panties are right now.
Said no one, ever. Before now. What do you think, Bert? Are they as wet as yours at the prospect of war with Russia? |
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Post by Lomelis on Mar 4, 2022 8:25:26 GMT
Must be neat to be a modern “libertarian” where the liberty you value is your own. Must be like being a Nazi citizen and being glad ur not a Jew and encourage the Jews just to accept imprisonment to avoid death. It is fucking dumb to refuse to negotiate on joining NATO when NATO has said it will not defend that country or allow it to join anytime soon. It is easy to give that win to Russia when it costs nothing, removes that talking point from Russia, and could potentially save the country. It's worth a shot. Refusing is idiotic, there is nothing to gain and nothing more to lose at this point as NATO isn't going to get directly involved. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 4, 2022 19:49:55 GMT
Just seeing on TV that Biden met with the Finnish president and discussed their admission into NATO.
Is this good or bad for the current situation?
On one hand it gives another negotiating lever to the NATO/Ukraine/EU side. On the other, Putin may interpret it as provocative and motivate him to dig in on his efforts and push him away from the table.
Hopefully the former.
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Post by oldtrapper on Mar 4, 2022 19:59:29 GMT
Just seeing on TV that Biden met with the Finnish president and discussed their admission into NATO. Is this good or bad for the current situation? On one hand it gives another negotiating lever to the NATO/Ukraine/EU side. On the other, Putin may interpret it as provocative and motivate him to dig in on his efforts and push him away from the table. Hopefully the former. Like trump, Putin is looking for any excuse to advance his agenda, and will use fiction when all else fails. Doesn't matter what we, or anyone else, does. Remember, Putin did "promise" to not bomb civilian targets. Now they are shelters for "renegade forces".
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 4, 2022 20:05:43 GMT
Just seeing on TV that Biden met with the Finnish president and discussed their admission into NATO. Is this good or bad for the current situation? On one hand it gives another negotiating lever to the NATO/Ukraine/EU side. On the other, Putin may interpret it as provocative and motivate him to dig in on his efforts and push him away from the table. Hopefully the former. As I said previously, Putin is defeating his goal by invading Ukraine |
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 4, 2022 21:06:05 GMT
Just seeing on TV that Biden met with the Finnish president and discussed their admission into NATO. Is this good or bad for the current situation? On one hand it gives another negotiating lever to the NATO/Ukraine/EU side. On the other, Putin may interpret it as provocative and motivate him to dig in on his efforts and push him away from the table. Hopefully the former. Like trump, Putin is looking for any excuse to advance his agenda, and will use fiction when all else fails. Doesn't matter what we, or anyone else, does. Remember, Putin did "promise" to not bomb civilian targets. Now they are shelters for "renegade forces".
and putin promised macron he would not invade not that long ago... one thing is absolutely clear - putin is going to do whatever he wants regardless of world opinion, and he has absolutely no problem lying to world leaders faces...he does not respect any of them/us... he clearly has some degree of support from china, india, some of the middle east....and he does not care how much he is hated by the west...he feels he will have enough friends when its over...and he will have pursued his agenda. and he clearly stated in him 7000 work talk last year how he envisioned russia in the future - basically the old ussr... and he is clearly pursuing that agenda... why anyone on the planet is acting surprised is beyond me... |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 4, 2022 21:25:05 GMT
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Post by oldtrapper on Mar 5, 2022 0:09:15 GMT
Like trump, Putin is looking for any excuse to advance his agenda, and will use fiction when all else fails. Doesn't matter what we, or anyone else, does. Remember, Putin did "promise" to not bomb civilian targets. Now they are shelters for "renegade forces".
and putin promised macron he would not invade not that long ago... one thing is absolutely clear - putin is going to do whatever he wants regardless of world opinion, and he has absolutely no problem lying to world leaders faces...he does not respect any of them/us... he clearly has some degree of support from china, india, some of the middle east....and he does not care how much he is hated by the west...he feels he will have enough friends when its over...and he will have pursued his agenda. and he clearly stated in him 7000 work talk last year how he envisioned russia in the future - basically the old ussr... and he is clearly pursuing that agenda... why anyone on the planet is acting surprised is beyond me... No surprise here. In fact, I would support the sinking of any oligarchs yacht including that of Putin. I would also support a "No Fly" zone over Ukraine, sending F35's to Ukraine, and bombing the f**k out of that convoy.
Way past time, and the world is getting too small, for the "Good People" to stand up to these criminals. And that includes putting the trumps of the world in jail where they belong.
BTW, your grammar still sucks.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 5, 2022 2:10:29 GMT
"According to the Kremlin's readout of the call, Putin told Scholz that Kyiv must agree to demilitarize, accept Moscow's sovereignty over Crimea and surrender territory to Moscow-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. The demands also include what Putin describes as the "denazification" of Ukraine." -- www.dw.com/en/ukraine-germanys-scholz-urges-putin-to-end-hostilities/a-61018687This is from a call between Putin and the German chancellor regarding a deal to end the war. I feel like there was someone (or someones) here proposing exactly this idea... |
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Post by oldtrapper on Mar 5, 2022 5:24:07 GMT
"According to the Kremlin's readout of the call, Putin told Scholz that Kyiv must agree to demilitarize, accept Moscow's sovereignty over Crimea and surrender territory to Moscow-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. The demands also include what Putin describes as the "denazification" of Ukraine." -- www.dw.com/en/ukraine-germanys-scholz-urges-putin-to-end-hostilities/a-61018687This is from a call between Putin and the German chancellor regarding a deal to end the war. I feel like there was someone (or someones) here proposing exactly this idea... If Ukraine were to agree to this farce Putin would be right back in 4 years calling for more "protection" for the fake "separatists" he will send to the Ukraine. |
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Post by johnnybgood on Mar 5, 2022 5:48:23 GMT
That Natasha Bertrand comment makes my exact point that I have been making.
Absent negotiations that give Putin something he wants (or major western military involvement) Putin will get what he wants through the completion of this invasion.
He will just take it. All of it. Or, negotiations might be able to keep a neutral, sovereign Ukraine in existence.
Putin wants Ukraine and he will take it. He can't be trusted with negotiations. The Ukrainian people will continue to fight, whether he takes it or not. sanctions will continue and both the Ukrainian people and many in Russia will continue to oppose Putin's goals. This is a lose, lose situation. Putin needs to pack up his troops and weapons and go the hell home. I got a better idea for Putin.  Unfortunately he's the most protected man in the world right now. |
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Post by johnnybgood on Mar 5, 2022 5:49:18 GMT
I'm just seeing that something good might have come out of the negotiations. Is this accurate that Russia has agreed to allow safe passage for escape and for aid? Russia doesn't just do things to be nice. So this seems like angling for a deal. Lie |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 7, 2022 15:43:29 GMT
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Post by Greg55_99 on Mar 7, 2022 15:47:51 GMT
As an aside, do you still think all of this is about Ukraine joining Nato? Greg |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Mar 7, 2022 15:51:03 GMT
As an aside, do you still think all of this is about Ukraine joining Nato? Greg It never was. It was about Russian empire and naked aggression. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 7, 2022 15:54:17 GMT
As an aside, do you still think all of this is about Ukraine joining Nato? They keep repeating the same demand over and over and over, but it's not about that? C'mon. That's not the only reason, but it's clearly a fundamental one. They're not even bothering to mention denazification, and they're treating demilitarization as accomplished. |
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Post by Greg55_99 on Mar 7, 2022 15:55:59 GMT
As an aside, do you still think all of this is about Ukraine joining Nato? They keep repeating the same demand over and over and over, but it's not about that? C'mon. That's not the only reason, but it's clearly a fundamental one. They're not even bothering to mention denazification, and they're treating demilitarization as accomplished. Well, I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this point. My opinion is as always. This Nato thing was just another Putin smokescreen. Greg |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Mar 7, 2022 16:00:14 GMT
They keep repeating the same demand over and over and over, but it's not about that? C'mon. That's not the only reason, but it's clearly a fundamental one. They're not even bothering to mention denazification, and they're treating demilitarization as accomplished. Well, I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this point. My opinion is as always. This Nato thing was just another Putin smokescreen. Greg Putin is a madman. All other political considerations aside, he must go. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 7, 2022 16:03:01 GMT
Sounds like they are asking for exactly what I have been saying should be included in an offer. In fact, what I mentioned as an opening offer is basically here, with the addition of the PM piece. But if that is Russia's current offer, surely they could potentially negotiate back to what I have proposed.
Ukraine should respond by saying they would accept the offer if #1 is dropped.
They can always change their mind later, at least on the NATO piece, but if this is an opportunity to immediately stop the war, this should be taken seriously.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 7, 2022 16:07:36 GMT
Well, I suppose we'll agree to disagree on this point. My opinion is as always. This Nato thing was just another Putin smokescreen. A fundamental Russian redline for 30 years is a smoke screen? What do y'all think the invasion of Georgia was about in 2008? You can't just magically wave this away to suit the 'Putin is a madman' narrative. That we've ignored this as an issue since then is just ridiculous. And in the process, we put Ukraine in the worst of possible positions: we wouldn't admit them into NATO, but we wouldn't send the clear signal that they would remain out of NATO either. Nope, had to hold out the "open door." |
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