petep
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Post by petep on Mar 10, 2022 21:49:20 GMT
just wondering why you get so bent of shape with the wwii analogy to hitler... Because it's a dumb analogy that gets used over and over and over with every conflict. It's lazy. really - it seems to be the most appropriate for what putin is doing, and his motivation to do what he is doing, as he said in his own 7000 word speech... and since wwii its about the only conflict I'd make the analogy to hitler/wwii...maybe milosovic to a degree.. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 22:07:40 GMT
really - it seems to be the most appropriate for what putin is doing, and his motivation to do what he is doing, as he said in his own 7000 word speech... Except it's not. Has Putin said he is going to commit genocide? Written anything resembling Mein Kampf? No. Even during WW2, the conflicts in Europe and the Pacific were quite distinct. Yet, no one ever thinks to compare Putin's actions to Japan. This is a regional conflict. It has been a regional conflict since 2014. Much more analogous to Austria and Serbia in 1914. Or from Russian history: the Russo-Japanese War of 1905. Or USSR in Hungary 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968. Depending on NATO's response, this could end up being more like 1914 where things escalate into a world war, or it could be more like 1905, 1956 or 1968. Serbia/Kosovo was an internal conflict, so not really analogous. The history of war didn't stop after WW2. Point of fact, we have plenty of more recent Russian actions to look at and judge this conflict by. And given that the unipolar movement has passed, there's all kinds of history prior to WW2 which is analogous. EDIT: the other thing that makes the Hitler/WW2 comparison absurd is just watching the current conflict. Not sure how you get European conquering juggernaut from that. |
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Post by limey² on Mar 10, 2022 22:40:37 GMT
Add in a full military alliance should Russia attack Ukraine, full restitution of all infrastructure damage, compensation by Russia for those injured, traumatised or bereaved, compensation for lost business, and payment by Russia for the costs of ICC investigations in to Russian war crimes, and full co-operation with the ICC. And committment to demilitarise the disputed areas, cease any covert or open support for separatists, anx stop propaganda operations. And repay Ukrainian costs for fuel, ammunition and expended weaponry. And apologise.
I can get on board with the first part of this, as any agreement has to have something powerful to enforce it or the same thing may happen again.
But you are asking them to admit fault and apologize and I doubt they will go along with that. And is it really worth missing a deal for peace for some symbolic apology they don't really mean?
Good point. Nobody will believe a word a Russian official says ever again. |
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thor
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Post by thor on Mar 10, 2022 23:21:12 GMT
demos, there are many throughout history...even BC that would qualify... its just that the avg person learns much more about hitler these days than many of the other true jerks in history...Plus people can relate to this more than they can germania and the roman empire... That's the whole freaking problem, because not every current event is reducible to Hitler and WW2. Reductio ad Hitlerum. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Mar 11, 2022 7:02:24 GMT
Then as I said, the analogy fails.
It doesn't though. It is analogy of the decision-making process when wronged. Not an analogy of the level of wrongfulness.
Bravo! You are truly the master of privileged parsing. Next you'll be granting Putin the Killer Kyle exemption, allowing him to claim self-defense after giving himself license to wade into Ukraine for no good reason, with superior weaponry, ready to kill at the first resistance. People are being slaughtered by a madman, and you want to argue about an analogy of the decision-making process when wronged, but not about the analogy's level of wrongness? Cities are being destroyed. Putin is waging war against a people. Not their army. Not any army. Putin is waging war against a people, like the US did with its natives. Or any other genocidal person or people have done through the ages. Your analogy fails. |
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Post by Lomelis on Mar 11, 2022 7:30:24 GMT
At this point I think the US should negotiate directly with Russia. We can offer a treaty something like this: The US will not support, endorse, or vote in favor of Ukraine membership to NATO which effectively cuts off NATO membership for Ukraine. The US will not place weapons in or send weapons to Ukraine. The US will not have troops or military "advisors" in Ukraine. The US will recognize Crimea and the eastern regions of Ukraine as either being independent or Russian territory. In exchange Russia would immediately cease aggressive military operations, withdraw it's forces, and recognize the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government. All sanctions would be eliminated once the Russian forces have left the country. I suspect something like that could be worked out if we actually tried. The Ukrainians can proudly say they never surrendered and bravely stood against the evil Russians and the Russians keep NATO out of Ukraine and get official recognition of territory they've already controlled for nearly a decade. Add in a full military alliance should Russia attack Ukraine, full restitution of all infrastructure damage, compensation by Russia for those injured, traumatised or bereaved, compensation for lost business, and payment by Russia for the costs of ICC investigations in to Russian war crimes, and full co-operation with the ICC. And committment to demilitarise the disputed areas, cease any covert or open support for separatists, anx stop propaganda operations. And repay Ukrainian costs for fuel, ammunition and expended weaponry. And apologise. There could certainly be more things negotiated. Much of that seems it would likely be outright rejected. Maybe it could be termed in a manner of selling the property but who knows. |
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Post by Lomelis on Mar 11, 2022 7:32:49 GMT
Often its about how to avoid battle just wondering why you get so bent of shape with the wwii analogy to hitler... Because it's fucking retarded. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 11, 2022 13:13:50 GMT
It doesn't though. It is analogy of the decision-making process when wronged. Not an analogy of the level of wrongfulness.
Bravo! You are truly the master of privileged parsing. Next you'll be granting Putin the Killer Kyle exemption, allowing him to claim self-defense after giving himself license to wade into Ukraine for no good reason, with superior weaponry, ready to kill at the first resistance. People are being slaughtered by a madman, and you want to argue about an analogy of the decision-making process when wronged, but not about the analogy's level of wrongness? Cities are being destroyed. Putin is waging war against a people. Not their army. Not any army. Putin is waging war against a people, like the US did with its natives. Or any other genocidal person or people have done through the ages. Your analogy fails.
This is mostly just emotional platitudes, ad hominem and strawman that have nothing to do with the analogy.
And you accuse me of wanting to argue about an analogy, but you were the one that started that. Then you imply some kind of support for Putin, which would be the stupidest part of your post if not for the analogy YOU are making to Kyle Rittenhouse. All this emotional reaction to my analogy and how it is because Putin's actions are so awful, and then you are go and immediately suggest an analogy comparing a war criminal to a 17 year old who shot at 4 people who attacked him? Incredible!
The analogy is fine. If you don't want to address how stupid it is to not make a deal when the cavalry is clearly refusing to show up and help push Russia out, fine. I understand that people who are taking the side of fighting an almost certain losing battle, vs., negotiating a deal for survival don't want to talk about the mistake. Because the mistake is choosing the option of greater bloodshed, death and destruction.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 11, 2022 13:13:52 GMT
Often its about how to avoid battle just wondering why you get so bent of shape with the wwii analogy to hitler... Because it's fucking retarded. There are many many similarities. And that’s why so many military experts and historians are making the analogies But talk to them. Maybe you can convince them they are retarded and what Russia is doing much more closely resembles the Viking wars. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Mar 11, 2022 15:56:37 GMT
Bravo! You are truly the master of privileged parsing. Next you'll be granting Putin the Killer Kyle exemption, allowing him to claim self-defense after giving himself license to wade into Ukraine for no good reason, with superior weaponry, ready to kill at the first resistance. People are being slaughtered by a madman, and you want to argue about an analogy of the decision-making process when wronged, but not about the analogy's level of wrongness? Cities are being destroyed. Putin is waging war against a people. Not their army. Not any army. Putin is waging war against a people, like the US did with its natives. Or any other genocidal person or people have done through the ages. Your analogy fails.
This is mostly just emotional platitudes, ad hominem and strawman that have nothing to do with the analogy.
And you accuse me of wanting to argue about an analogy, but you were the one that started that. Then you imply some kind of support for Putin, which would be the stupidest part of your post if not for the analogy YOU are making to Kyle Rittenhouse. All this emotional reaction to my analogy and how it is because Putin's actions are so awful, and then you are go and immediately suggest an analogy comparing a war criminal to a 17 year old who shot at 4 people who attacked him? Incredible!
The analogy is fine. If you don't want to address how stupid it is to not make a deal when the cavalry is clearly refusing to show up and help push Russia out, fine. I understand that people who are taking the side of fighting an almost certain losing battle, vs., negotiating a deal for survival don't want to talk about the mistake. Because the mistake is choosing the option of greater bloodshed, death and destruction.
Like Bobby Knight said, if you're being raped, your best option is to stop resisting and enjoy it. He was a privileged prick too. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 11, 2022 16:02:57 GMT
This is mostly just emotional platitudes, ad hominem and strawman that have nothing to do with the analogy.
And you accuse me of wanting to argue about an analogy, but you were the one that started that. Then you imply some kind of support for Putin, which would be the stupidest part of your post if not for the analogy YOU are making to Kyle Rittenhouse. All this emotional reaction to my analogy and how it is because Putin's actions are so awful, and then you are go and immediately suggest an analogy comparing a war criminal to a 17 year old who shot at 4 people who attacked him? Incredible!
The analogy is fine. If you don't want to address how stupid it is to not make a deal when the cavalry is clearly refusing to show up and help push Russia out, fine. I understand that people who are taking the side of fighting an almost certain losing battle, vs., negotiating a deal for survival don't want to talk about the mistake. Because the mistake is choosing the option of greater bloodshed, death and destruction.
Like Bobby Knight said, if you're being raped, your best option is to stop resisting and enjoy it. He was a privileged prick too.
Let me know when you want to move beyond red herring and ad hominem.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 11, 2022 16:16:19 GMT
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 11, 2022 16:40:53 GMT
"The Kremlin said on Friday the conflict in Ukraine would end when the West took action over Russia's repeatedly raised concerns about the killing of civilians in eastern Ukraine and NATO enlargement eastwards."
But it isn't about NATO.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 11, 2022 20:30:10 GMT
SourceAdvice from 'the Middle East's only democracy', our good buddy and ally, Israel. Just here for the schadenfreude.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 11, 2022 20:50:43 GMT
"The Kremlin said on Friday the conflict in Ukraine would end when the West took action over Russia's repeatedly raised concerns about the killing of civilians in eastern Ukraine and NATO enlargement eastwards."
But it isn't about NATO.
nazis and drug dealers...he said that too...you know, the ones in all the others cities... especially that nazi leader zelensky - he really must go... |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 11, 2022 21:07:28 GMT
"The Kremlin said on Friday the conflict in Ukraine would end when the West took action over Russia's repeatedly raised concerns about the killing of civilians in eastern Ukraine and NATO enlargement eastwards."
But it isn't about NATO.
nazis and drug dealers...he said that too...you know, the ones in all the others cities... especially that nazi leader zelensky - he really must go...
Gotta get past this obsession. It won't serve you well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2022 21:09:05 GMT
nazis and drug dealers...he said that too...you know, the ones in all the others cities... especially that nazi leader zelensky - he really must go...
Gotta get past this obsession. It won't serve you well.
He doesn't have an argument otherwise. He's gotta hold onto what's working for him in soothing his cognitive dissonance.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Mar 11, 2022 22:20:20 GMT
A Ukrainian spokesperson added that Israel is not really acting as a mediator, which would logically involve proposing various compromises to both sides. Instead, the spokesperson said Israel is acting more like a messaging service, which Ukraine already has plenty of.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 11, 2022 22:22:20 GMT
A Ukrainian spokesperson added that Israel is not really acting as a mediator, which would logically involve proposing various compromises to both sides. Instead, the spokesperson said Israel is acting more like a messaging service, which Ukraine already has plenty of. They're Hitler's messenger service.  |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Mar 12, 2022 2:25:11 GMT
A Ukrainian spokesperson added that Israel is not really acting as a mediator, which would logically involve proposing various compromises to both sides. Instead, the spokesperson said Israel is acting more like a messaging service, which Ukraine already has plenty of. They're Hitler's messenger service. 
How ironic.
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