bama beau
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Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
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Post by bama beau on Mar 10, 2022 17:19:31 GMT
They will never get it... Its odd too...or actually ironic... They champion this idea of freedom and liberty - calls themselves libertarian...yet they are literally championing enslaving people to avoid conflict... and you and I wads are typically at opposite ends of the spectrum on many issues...and here we are aligned It seems we both understand something jack nicholsons character in the departed said - no one gives it to you, you have to take it... Most every populace throughout the history of the world that was enslaved or under the thumb of some authoritarian and eventually became free, was never just granted freedom...they had to fight for it, literally or figuratively.... the ukranian people lived for decades under brutal authoritarian rule...many still alive and remember what it was like...since 1991 they've had a taste of freedom and they have been devouring it....and now they see it all slipping away... so they are fighting for their freedom... and they very may well lose this battle, be killed and their cities destroyed fighting for it....but that is what they want. And in the long term, over the next 25 years, I suspect Russia's world reputation has been so damaged beyond repair, that someday they will regain their country and their freedom I can see these so called libertarians telling people in different eras - slaves, women, blacks, jews etc - just sit back and take it, you'll avoid any conflict... easy to say when you are sitting as a free citizen...
LOL. Part of fighting for freedom is not running in to almost certain death when there are other options.
An analogy I would use is someone wrongfully arrested/pulled over/etc.
If you know you've not broken the law, you have two basic options.
1) Follow the instructions of the officers, get legal representation if necessary, use the justice system to prove yourself innocent and seek any possible restitution.
2) Fight the officer.
The first option, you live to clear your name. The second option, there's a pretty good chance you die. And best case scenario you mess your life up forever and probably go to prison.
You fail to recognize or account for the difference between an ostensibly legal police stop or arrest and a totally illegal, unwarranted, brutal, inhumane, murderous, despotic military bombing/invasion. I would react quite differently to the second rather than the first, as I suspect would you or anyone. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 17:22:15 GMT
I am not ignoring the fact that you condone the Putin war because you think the west has done bad things to him. You are acting like a pro Putin bitch Yeah, you're just making shit up there. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 10, 2022 17:22:18 GMT
LOL. Part of fighting for freedom is not running in to almost certain death when there are other options.
An analogy I would use is someone wrongfully arrested/pulled over/etc.
If you know you've not broken the law, you have two basic options.
1) Follow the instructions of the officers, get legal representation if necessary, use the justice system to prove yourself innocent and seek any possible restitution.
2) Fight the officer.
The first option, you live to clear your name. The second option, there's a pretty good chance you die. And best case scenario you mess your life up forever and probably go to prison.
You fail to recognize or account for the difference between an ostensibly legal police stop or arrest and a totally illegal, unwarranted, brutal, inhumane, murderous, despotic military bombing/invasion. I would react quite differently to the second rather than the first, as I suspect would you or anyone.
I specifically used the term "wrongful" for the analogy.
And the level of "wrongfulness" isn't relevant to the analogy.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Mar 10, 2022 17:23:43 GMT
Then you're purposefully ignoring quite a bit. This is the type of partisan nonsense that leads y'all to ignore their actual issues (see also petep blaming Biden for the invasion). I am not ignoring the fact that you condone the Putin war because you think the west has done bad things to him. You are acting like a pro Putin bitch demos just got got by Wadsworth. Brutal SMACKDOWN. |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 10, 2022 18:46:19 GMT
I am not ignoring the fact that you condone the Putin war because you think the west has done bad things to him. You are acting like a pro Putin bitch Yeah, you're just making shit up there. No, I am reading your post |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 18:47:02 GMT
No, I am reading your post No, you're creating a strawman. |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 10, 2022 18:47:52 GMT
No, I am reading your post No, you're creating a strawman. I’m reading your post |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 18:49:42 GMT
Learn the term strategic empathy. Understanding why other people do things /= to condoning their behavior. |
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bama beau
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Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
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Post by bama beau on Mar 10, 2022 19:37:55 GMT
You fail to recognize or account for the difference between an ostensibly legal police stop or arrest and a totally illegal, unwarranted, brutal, inhumane, murderous, despotic military bombing/invasion. I would react quite differently to the second rather than the first, as I suspect would you or anyone.
I specifically used the term "wrongful" for the analogy.
And the level of "wrongfulness" isn't relevant to the analogy.
Then as I said, the analogy fails. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 10, 2022 20:02:08 GMT
I specifically used the term "wrongful" for the analogy.
And the level of "wrongfulness" isn't relevant to the analogy.
Then as I said, the analogy fails.
It doesn't though. It is analogy of the decision-making process when wronged. Not an analogy of the level of wrongfulness.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 10, 2022 20:07:13 GMT
Posting here since I think it is starting to look like a negotiating tactic.
For days, now, Russian forces have been just outside of Kyiv. Now I am seeing reporting that even more forces are built up outside the city.
So the question is...what are they waiting for? Why aren't they moving into the city?
I'm sure there could be an operational reason. But it is starting to look like applying pressure to go to the negotiating table and fear of NATO/US response to something as escalatory as taking Kyiv.
This tactic really does fit into the fear of NATO. Jen Psaki already announced today that the US will continue to respond to escalatory acts.
It sounds like Putin miscalculated and thought he would have a deal by now. And is trying really hard to get this thing to end before his bluff is called and he has to decide whether to move into Kyiv or reveal it as a bluff.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 20:15:30 GMT
Posting here since I think it is starting to look like a negotiating tactic. For days, now, Russian forces have been just outside of Kyiv. Now I am seeing reporting that even more forces are built up outside the city. So the question is...what are they waiting for? Why aren't they moving into the city? I'm sure there could be an operational reason. But it is starting to look like applying pressure to go to the negotiating table and fear of NATO/US response to something as escalatory as taking Kyiv. Probably both. If the negotiations fail, they'll level Kyiv similar to what's happening elsewhere in Ukraine, then the troops will roll in. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 10, 2022 21:10:07 GMT
Most military experts are stating that the russians have not been as successful with the number of people they have and the equipment they are using, so they will be relying on sheer numbers to overwhelm
also, it looks like the men in the city have holed up pretty well, with small arms, anti tank weapons, roadblocks etc...and as much as superior firepower is very helpful, when going into a city not familiar to you, with many opponents with small arms, it becomes difficult to actually control the city...
from the start putin has said he plans on regime change, take the capital...so I suspect its just a matter of getting to a high number of soldiers...
Sadly, putin is doubling down on his brutality, openly targeting fleeing citizens, hospitals etc...its as though he is begging the west to do something, to give him and excuse to use a nuke or something similar...
He will go down in at least western history as being up there with the likes of hitler...
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 21:16:08 GMT
Sadly, putin is doubling down on his brutality, openly targeting fleeing citizens, hospitals etc...its as though he is begging the west to do something, to give him and excuse to use a nuke or something similar... He's not begging the West to do something. This is simply how the Russian military operates: see Chechnya in 1994-1997 or 1999-2000 and current operations in Syria. It's brutal but not uncharacteristic. Why Hitler? Why not Stalin (who killed far more people btw)? Or Genghis Khan? Seriously, y'all need to break out of your WW2 fascination and study any other part of history. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 10, 2022 21:18:58 GMT
demos, there are many throughout history...even BC that would qualify...its just that the avg person learns much more about hitler these days than many of the other true jerks in history...Plus people can relate to this more than they can germania and the roman empire...
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 21:21:18 GMT
demos, there are many throughout history...even BC that would qualify... its just that the avg person learns much more about hitler these days than many of the other true jerks in history...Plus people can relate to this more than they can germania and the roman empire... That's the whole freaking problem, because not every current event is reducible to Hitler and WW2. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 10, 2022 21:28:14 GMT
I think if you read sun tzu's art of war the similarity between all of them is quite apparent...not exact, but pretty darn close...
the motivation(s) to start war has not changed that much over the eons...
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 21:37:48 GMT
I think if you read sun tzu's art of war the similarity between all of them is quite apparent...not exact, but pretty darn close... the motivation(s) to start war has not changed that much over the eons... I have read Sun Tzu's Art of War (2 different translations) and Zhuge Liang's and Liu Ji's commentaries on The Art of War. Still not sure what your point is since neither are about motivations/justifications behind war. They're about how to fight a war and win. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 10, 2022 21:39:25 GMT
Often its about how to avoid battle
just wondering why you get so bent of shape with the wwii analogy to hitler...
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 10, 2022 21:44:12 GMT
just wondering why you get so bent of shape with the wwii analogy to hitler... Because it's a dumb analogy that gets used over and over and over with every conflict. It's lazy. |
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