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Post by Mercy for All on May 1, 2024 0:35:04 GMT
Except that without "religious belief," it doesn't exist. At all. There is absolutely nothing that emerges from naturalism or science or any other secular "ism" that posits the eternal or infinite value of every human being. Nonsense.. Morals are an emergent property among social animals and humans are social animals.
Non-human social animals exhibit behavior that we would consider moral. .. benevolence, fairness, self sacrifice, empathy .. they punish bad behavior..
Morality evolved along with us.
The idea that every human being has infinite innate value did not "evolve." Benevolence? Fairness? Self-sacrifice? Empathy? They might emerge from reciprocity, but if reciprocity is the only motivator, then every other human being is merely a means to an end. Anything that is reduced to function can effectively be replaced. The idea that a human being has innate value is not mere functionality; individuals are not "replaceable."
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Post by Mercy for All on May 1, 2024 0:35:50 GMT
Me neither. I give Sunday school teachers a bit of a pass because their job is elementary religious instruction, not a critical examination of the same. How cruel to send kids to school on Sundays! We don't have that here. Not that I know of at any rate. Sunday school originate to teach kids how to read...the kids that were working in mines and factories every other day of the week.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 1, 2024 0:36:41 GMT
Nonsense.. Morals are an emergent property among social animals and humans are social animals.
Non-human social animals exhibit behavior that we would consider moral. .. benevolence, fairness, self sacrifice, empathy .. they punish bad behavior..
Morality evolved along with us.
Nah, Mercy says there were no morals before religion. I mean that's totally true, just look at history.... oh wait... So hilariously wrong.
That's not actually what I said, was it? I said that the idea that every human being has innate value is a religious idea with religious roots. Your deliberate misrepresentation smacks of desperation.
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Post by atreyu on May 1, 2024 0:42:01 GMT
Nah, Mercy says there were no morals before religion. I mean that's totally true, just look at history.... oh wait... So hilariously wrong.
That's not actually what I said, was it? I said that the idea that every human being has innate value is a religious idea with religious roots. Your deliberate misrepresentation smacks of desperation.
Even if the idea came from "Religion" (how does that work?) religion is man made.... you're theory smacks of desperation.
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Post by DaveJavu on May 1, 2024 1:04:17 GMT
How cruel to send kids to school on Sundays! We don't have that here. Not that I know of at any rate. Sunday school originate to teach kids how to read...the kids that were working in mines and factories every other day of the week. So it takes its roots in savage capitalism inequity.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 1, 2024 1:09:18 GMT
That's not actually what I said, was it? I said that the idea that every human being has innate value is a religious idea with religious roots. Your deliberate misrepresentation smacks of desperation.
Even if the idea came from "Religion" (how does that work?) religion is man made.... you're theory smacks of desperation.
Are you really trotting out such an obvious circular argument?
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Post by Mercy for All on May 1, 2024 1:09:50 GMT
Sunday school originate to teach kids how to read...the kids that were working in mines and factories every other day of the week. So it takes its roots in savage capitalism inequity. That's...a perspective.
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Post by rabbitreborn on May 1, 2024 1:25:38 GMT
What purpose do those emergent moral orders serve?
Good question. They stabilize the group. Individuals do better. Groups are healthier both mentally and physically . Females find it easier to conceive. Offspring have a better change of survival. The group thrives. Morals are passed on.
In social groups, moral traits 'evolved' under the same Darwinian pressure as did physical traits .. Duh.
Is there a lesson in conservatism in that? Was Chesterton right that the progressive desire to tear down the fence in the woods is only checked by a conservative who wants to determine why the fence was put up in the first place?
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Post by HolyMoly on May 1, 2024 1:57:12 GMT
Me neither. I give Sunday school teachers a bit of a pass because their job is elementary religious instruction, not a critical examination of the same. How cruel to send kids to school on Sundays! We don't have that here. Not that I know of at any rate. If you're not pulling my leg, Sunday school is not public education but where children who go to church on Sunday mornings with their family get basic religious instruction separately from the church service.
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Post by oldtrapper on May 1, 2024 2:00:07 GMT
Morals, like anything related to religion, are worthless unless they are practiced. Even as "guides" they are meaningless. In this forum, as with all of global society, we have a group who are quite proud of being liars, and support liars regardless of the consequences for themselves, and others. So of what value are religion, or morals, to them? It's obvious that they're fooling themselves... Not much of a feat though. I notice that none want to defend supporting liars, or lies.
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Post by DaveJavu on May 1, 2024 6:14:25 GMT
How cruel to send kids to school on Sundays! We don't have that here. Not that I know of at any rate. If you're not pulling my leg, Sunday school is not public education but where children who go to church on Sunday mornings with their family get basic religious instruction separately from the church service. I was not. We don't have that here.
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Post by HolyMoly on May 1, 2024 21:08:16 GMT
If you're not pulling my leg, Sunday school is not public education but where children who go to church on Sunday mornings with their family get basic religious instruction separately from the church service. I was not. We don't have that here. Point taken. Maybe this is more of an American phenomenon than I thought. It's mostly for young kids so there's not a lot of profound theological discussion. Look at the animals on Noah's Ark. Aren't they purty.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 1, 2024 22:25:44 GMT
I was not. We don't have that here. Point taken. Maybe this is more of an American phenomenon than I thought. It's mostly for young kids so there's not a lot of profound theological discussion. Look at the animals on Noah's Ark. Aren't they purty. It started in Great Britain, I believe. In some traditions it goes up to something like age 16. Some churches have "adult Sunday School" before or after the regular Sunday service.
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thor
Legend
Posts: 17,608
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Post by thor on May 2, 2024 0:44:39 GMT
It's interesting how few skeptics can have a religious conversation in good faith without distortion, misrepresentation, and straight up mockery, as if the conversation must be had at the lowest level of intellect with no attempt to understand anything at all—like they wouldn't do at all in any other field whatsoever. Mercy, you're expecting morality and manners from people that hate us because we are Christians. And, make no mistake, it IS hatred that drives them to hyperbolic heights like this. Sadly, their lives are wasted and shallow because they reject any belief beyond their limited senses. Insanely jealous of the spiritual peace that Christians do have, they want us all to dumb down to their "lowest level of intellect" and join them in their morally relativistic world view. You own religious texts say you are going to hell, Stupid Boy.
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thor
Legend
Posts: 17,608
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Post by thor on May 2, 2024 0:46:06 GMT
I think it should be considered anytime those that espouse such seek to govern. I'd say the same for those that believe in any mythology. What about things like “trans women are women”. Mythology or science? What about life from nothing? Random happenstance forming life and consciousness in a vacuum of space and dead rock and stars? Mythology or science? Faith or logic? Fobbit thinking about those Trans folks again. A cry for help...
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thor
Legend
Posts: 17,608
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Post by thor on May 2, 2024 0:47:27 GMT
Morals, like anything related to religion, are worthless unless they are practiced. Even as "guides" they are meaningless. In this forum, as with all of global society, we have a group who are quite proud of being liars, and support liars regardless of the consequences for themselves, and others. So of what value are religion, or morals, to them? Nicely job of describing Fobbit, Shitbag, Paleo.....
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Post by HolyMoly on May 2, 2024 0:59:10 GMT
Point taken. Maybe this is more of an American phenomenon than I thought. It's mostly for young kids so there's not a lot of profound theological discussion. Look at the animals on Noah's Ark. Aren't they purty. It started in Great Britain, I believe. In some traditions it goes up to something like age 16. Some churches have "adult Sunday School" before or after the regular Sunday service. I really don't know anything about the origins of Sunday school. I'm guessing that things have change somewhat since I attended many years ago.
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