|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Apr 30, 2024 19:08:01 GMT
The well-known Merneptah Stele (c. 1219 B.C.E.) refers to “Israel” along with three towns—Ashkelon, Gezer and Yeno’am. The Egyptian classifier for “town” is attached to each of these three. The classifier attached to “Israel,” however, is for “people.” Israel had therefore not yet created settlements in what was to become the land of Israel.
Thus we have evidence of population groups in Egypt and elsewhere in the late Ramesside period (late 13th–12th century B.C.E.) who were culturally and ethnically close to what we know as Israel in the Iron Age (c. 1200–586 B.C.E.).
The Egyptians were notorious about erasing previous history to suit the current rulers. It would certainly be in their nature to try to hide the kind of humiliating losses that they suffered during the Exodus.
Good info.. Thanks.. I'll use that the next time I need to show that there is no evidence for Israelites being in 15 century BC Egypt..
Do you require such evidence for any event from 3,500+ years ago? Or just those that pertain to Judeo-Christian beliefs? If events from 3-4 thousand years ago need multiple written confirmations from multiple cultures, what do we really know about anything from back then? |
|
Fiddler
Legend
Wasted again ..
Posts: 13,840
|
Post by Fiddler on Apr 30, 2024 21:04:14 GMT
Dehumanizing people gives the opportunity to scapegoat them and eliminate them. We always run the risk of dehumanizing those we perceive as threat, or worst, objects of contempt. We always run the risk of dehumanizing those we perceive as threat, or worst, objects of contempt.. It's not a risk.. it is a feature built into all of us. A feature that in those predisposed to reject concepts like individual rights and civil liberties can be easily triggered. Religious conservatives have effectively utilized it against various groups over the centuries.. multiple times against Jews and Muslims and famously against Blacks to justify slavery .. and of course used perpetually against anyone who falls into the category of LGBT..etc .. Education can lessen our susceptibility but as humans we seem to be stuck with it .. at least until evolution rewires us .. |
|
|
|
Post by HolyMoly on Apr 30, 2024 21:06:34 GMT
The large number of exodusees is one factor. Another is the doubt that people left all at the same time and from the same place and that it was a one time thing. And then there is the larger question of authorship and times of composition and the historicity of Moses. It works better as a religious document than an historical one. It definitely works better as a religious document than a historical one. Claims to a "Moses authorship" are based on extra-biblical tradition; the text does not even claim that Moses wrote it. Most scholarship today would see a collection of ancient texts (written and verbal) assembled and edited together sometime during the Babylonian Exile (and there's a lot to be said for that perspective). In Sunday school it was taught that Moses wrote 'em. Of course it was more of an unexamined given and Sunday school teachers are usually not Biblical scholars. I've read much the same about how the texts were assembled, though I'm just a very part-time semi-amateur. |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Apr 30, 2024 21:20:00 GMT
Dehumanizing people gives the opportunity to scapegoat them and eliminate them. We always run the risk of dehumanizing those we perceive as threat, or worst, objects of contempt. We always run the risk of dehumanizing those we perceive as threat, or worst, objects of contempt.. It's not a risk.. it is a feature built into all of us. A feature that in those predisposed to reject concepts like individual rights and civil liberties can be easily triggered. Religious conservatives have effectively utilized it against various groups over the centuries.. multiple times against Jews and Muslims and famously against Blacks to justify slavery .. and of course used perpetually against anyone who falls into the category of LGBT..etc .. Education can lessen our susceptibility but as humans we seem to be stuck with it .. at least until evolution rewires us .. Except that without "religious belief," it doesn't exist. At all. There is absolutely nothing that emerges from naturalism or science or any other secular "ism" that posits the eternal or infinite value of every human being. |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Apr 30, 2024 21:20:34 GMT
It definitely works better as a religious document than a historical one. Claims to a "Moses authorship" are based on extra-biblical tradition; the text does not even claim that Moses wrote it. Most scholarship today would see a collection of ancient texts (written and verbal) assembled and edited together sometime during the Babylonian Exile (and there's a lot to be said for that perspective). In Sunday school it was taught that Moses wrote 'em. Of course it was more of an unexamined given and Sunday school teachers are usually not Biblical scholars. I've read much the same about how the texts were assembled, though I'm just a very part-time semi-amateur. An "unexamined given." That's exactly it. I'm not a fan of "unexamined givens." |
|
Fiddler
Legend
Wasted again ..
Posts: 13,840
|
Post by Fiddler on Apr 30, 2024 21:27:58 GMT
]Do you require such evidence for any event from 3,500+ years ago? Or just those that pertain to Judeo-Christian beliefs? I think it should be considered anytime those that espouse such seek to govern. I'd say the same for those that believe in any mythology. If events from 3-4 thousand years ago need multiple written confirmations from multiple cultures, what do we really know about anything from back then? Without written accounts .. Not much .. We know a good deal about period Greek, Roman, even Sumerian .. But not much from Archaic Mesoamerica in the same time period.. |
|
Fiddler
Legend
Wasted again ..
Posts: 13,840
|
Post by Fiddler on Apr 30, 2024 21:40:13 GMT
It's not a risk.. it is a feature built into all of us. A feature that in those predisposed to reject concepts like individual rights and civil liberties can be easily triggered. Religious conservatives have effectively utilized it against various groups over the centuries.. multiple times against Jews and Muslims and famously against Blacks to justify slavery .. and of course used perpetually against anyone who falls into the category of LGBT..etc .. Education can lessen our susceptibility but as humans we seem to be stuck with it .. at least until evolution rewires us .. Except that without "religious belief," it doesn't exist. At all. There is absolutely nothing that emerges from naturalism or science or any other secular "ism" that posits the eternal or infinite value of every human being. Nonsense.. Morals are an emergent property among social animals and humans are social animals.
Non-human social animals exhibit behavior that we would consider moral. .. benevolence, fairness, self sacrifice, empathy .. they punish bad behavior..
Morality evolved along with us.
|
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Apr 30, 2024 22:15:31 GMT
]Do you require such evidence for any event from 3,500+ years ago? Or just those that pertain to Judeo-Christian beliefs? I think it should be considered anytime those that espouse such seek to govern. I'd say the same for those that believe in any mythology. What about things like “trans women are women”. Mythology or science? What about life from nothing? Random happenstance forming life and consciousness in a vacuum of space and dead rock and stars? Mythology or science? Faith or logic? |
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Apr 30, 2024 22:18:22 GMT
Except that without "religious belief," it doesn't exist. At all. There is absolutely nothing that emerges from naturalism or science or any other secular "ism" that posits the eternal or infinite value of every human being. Nonsense.. Morals are an emergent property among social animals and humans are social animals.
Non-human social animals exhibit behavior that we would consider moral. .. benevolence, fairness, self sacrifice, empathy .. they punish bad behavior..
Morality evolved along with us.
What purpose do those emergent moral orders serve? |
|
Paleocon
Legend
We spent 50 Years fighting the USSR just to become a gay, retarded version of It.
Posts: 6,286
|
Post by Paleocon on Apr 30, 2024 22:19:45 GMT
The well-known Merneptah Stele (c. 1219 B.C.E.) refers to “Israel” along with three towns—Ashkelon, Gezer and Yeno’am. The Egyptian classifier for “town” is attached to each of these three. The classifier attached to “Israel,” however, is for “people.” Israel had therefore not yet created settlements in what was to become the land of Israel.
Thus we have evidence of population groups in Egypt and elsewhere in the late Ramesside period (late 13th–12th century B.C.E.) who were culturally and ethnically close to what we know as Israel in the Iron Age (c. 1200–586 B.C.E.).
The Egyptians were notorious about erasing previous history to suit the current rulers. It would certainly be in their nature to try to hide the kind of humiliating losses that they suffered during the Exodus.
Good info.. Thanks.. I'll use that the next time I need to show that there is no evidence for Israelites being in 15 century BC Egypt..
Quite a few scholars have placed the biblical exodus occurring historically in the 13th century, not the 15th, with Ramesses II as the Pharoah opposed by Moses. |
|
|
|
Post by atreyu on Apr 30, 2024 22:26:41 GMT
Except that without "religious belief," it doesn't exist. At all. There is absolutely nothing that emerges from naturalism or science or any other secular "ism" that posits the eternal or infinite value of every human being. Nonsense.. Morals are an emergent property among social animals and humans are social animals.
Non-human social animals exhibit behavior that we would consider moral. .. benevolence, fairness, self sacrifice, empathy .. they punish bad behavior..
Morality evolved along with us.
Nah, Mercy says there were no morals before religion. I mean that's totally true, just look at history.... oh wait... So hilariously wrong.
|
|
Paleocon
Legend
We spent 50 Years fighting the USSR just to become a gay, retarded version of It.
Posts: 6,286
|
Post by Paleocon on Apr 30, 2024 22:39:00 GMT
Dehumanizing people gives the opportunity to scapegoat them and eliminate them. We always run the risk of dehumanizing those we perceive as threat, or worst, objects of contempt. We always run the risk of dehumanizing those we perceive as threat, or worst, objects of contempt.. It's not a risk.. it is a feature built into all of us. A feature that in those predisposed to reject concepts like individual rights and civil liberties can be easily triggered. Religious conservatives have effectively utilized it against various groups over the centuries.. multiple times against Jews and Muslims and famously against Blacks to justify slavery .. and of course used perpetually against anyone who falls into the category of LGBT..etc .. Education can lessen our susceptibility but as humans we seem to be stuck with it .. at least until evolution rewires us .. All religions combined are minuscule compared to the brutal dehumanization and slaughter brought on by atheists in power in just the last 120 years. The atheist despots of the 20th century racked up 60-80 million deaths during the march of Fascism and Marxism. They were amateurs compared to the atheist filth that has supported, defended and enabled abortion to poison this earth. The estimated death toll of dehumanized unborn human beings is a staggering 1.73 BILLION since 1980. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot would have been salivating at such a bloody score and likely asking for lessons at the nearest abortion clinic.
Just in this one day, up to this moment, an estimated 85,000 human beings have been exterminated by abortionists worldwide, with nearly 2000 children lost in the U.S. today.
|
|
Fiddler
Legend
Wasted again ..
Posts: 13,840
|
Post by Fiddler on Apr 30, 2024 23:22:57 GMT
Nonsense.. Morals are an emergent property among social animals and humans are social animals.
Non-human social animals exhibit behavior that we would consider moral. .. benevolence, fairness, self sacrifice, empathy .. they punish bad behavior..
Morality evolved along with us.
What purpose do those emergent moral orders serve?
Good question. They stabilize the group. Individuals do better. Groups are healthier both mentally and physically . Females find it easier to conceive. Offspring have a better change of survival. The group thrives. Morals are passed on.
In social groups, moral traits 'evolved' under the same Darwinian pressure as did physical traits .. Duh.
|
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Apr 30, 2024 23:33:29 GMT
What purpose do those emergent moral orders serve?
Good question. They stabilize the group. Individuals do better. Groups are healthier both mentally and physically . Females find it easier to conceive. Offspring have a better change of survival. The group thrives. Morals are passed on.
In social groups, moral traits 'evolved' under the same Darwinian pressure as did physical traits .. Duh.
The question is: will that shut rabbit up or will he find some ignorantly arrogant thing to say about it? The suspense is killing me... |
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 23,422
|
Post by petep on Apr 30, 2024 23:44:53 GMT
What purpose do those emergent moral orders serve?
Good question. They stabilize the group. Individuals do better. Groups are healthier both mentally and physically . Females find it easier to conceive. Offspring have a better change of survival. The group thrives. Morals are passed on.
In social groups, moral traits 'evolved' under the same Darwinian pressure as did physical traits .. Duh.
Like Sudan. South Sudan. Somalia. The Congo. Those communities with morals. |
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Apr 30, 2024 23:48:22 GMT
Good question. They stabilize the group. Individuals do better. Groups are healthier both mentally and physically . Females find it easier to conceive. Offspring have a better change of survival. The group thrives. Morals are passed on.
In social groups, moral traits 'evolved' under the same Darwinian pressure as did physical traits .. Duh.
Like Sudan. South Sudan. Somalia. The Congo. Those communities with morals. Darwinism doesn't deal with communities but with species dumbass. Why don't you get informed before you make an ass of yourself with your ignorant remarks. |
|
|
|
Post by HolyMoly on May 1, 2024 0:03:22 GMT
In Sunday school it was taught that Moses wrote 'em. Of course it was more of an unexamined given and Sunday school teachers are usually not Biblical scholars. I've read much the same about how the texts were assembled, though I'm just a very part-time semi-amateur. An "unexamined given." That's exactly it. I'm not a fan of "unexamined givens." Me neither. I give Sunday school teachers a bit of a pass because their job is elementary religious instruction, not a critical examination of the same. |
|
|
|
Post by oldtrapper on May 1, 2024 0:16:45 GMT
Morals, like anything related to religion, are worthless unless they are practiced. Even as "guides" they are meaningless.
In this forum, as with all of global society, we have a group who are quite proud of being liars, and support liars regardless of the consequences for themselves, and others.
So of what value are religion, or morals, to them?
|
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on May 1, 2024 0:17:19 GMT
An "unexamined given." That's exactly it. I'm not a fan of "unexamined givens." Me neither. I give Sunday school teachers a bit of a pass because their job is elementary religious instruction, not a critical examination of the same. How cruel to send kids to school on Sundays! We don't have that here. Not that I know of at any rate. |
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on May 1, 2024 0:20:06 GMT
Morals, like anything related to religion, are worthless unless they are practiced. Even as "guides" they are meaningless. In this forum, as with all of global society, we have a group who are quite proud of being liars, and support liars regardless of the consequences for themselves, and others. So of what value are religion, or morals, to them? It's obvious that they're fooling themselves... Not much of a feat though. |
|
