demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 15, 2022 13:59:47 GMT
Sigh. You have been opining that 'communications and logistical issues should have been worked out in training'. OK. Say that they were. What is not present during training? Not really what I said. I said that there was a lack of planning, which seems evident by the lack of equipment, logistical problems, and some clearly poor training (like destroying the towers you need for your communications system to work). My point - as expressed earlier - is that this invasion was not really planned. If it had been, it seems like some of these issues, such as lack of equipment, specifically radios (which isn't a training issue), would have been rectified since it wasn't an unknown problem.
We could attribute all this to incompetence and corruption within Russia's military and government, and I wouldn't completely rule that out. But I would still side with those who have argued this invasion was the result of failed coercive diplomacy.
But clearly you have a thought about it, and know more than me, so why don't you share it?
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,410
|
Post by thor on Sept 15, 2022 15:45:18 GMT
Sigh. You have been opining that 'communications and logistical issues should have been worked out in training'. OK. Say that they were. What is not present during training? Not really what I said. I said that there was a lack of planning, which seems evident by the lack of equipment, logistical problems, and some clearly poor training (like destroying the towers you need for your communications system to work). My point - as expressed earlier - is that this invasion was not really planned. If it had been, it seems like some of these issues, such as lack of equipment, specifically radios (which isn't a training issue), would have been rectified since it wasn't an unknown problem.
We could attribute all this to incompetence and corruption within Russia's military and government, and I wouldn't completely rule that out. But I would still side with those who have argued this invasion was the result of failed coercive diplomacy.
But clearly you have a thought about it, and know more than me, so why don't you share it?
'Destroying towers needed for communications work.' Once again you are telling me you have very little idea that you know much about military operations. Focus. That is what we are discussing. You feel that the RUS army should have used UKR infrastructure for military communications (because that is what will become available the further they advanced)? What problems do you think that might cause? |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 15, 2022 16:27:26 GMT
'Destroying towers needed for communications work.' Once again you are telling me you have very little idea that you know much about military operations. Focus. That is what we are discussing. You feel that the RUS army should have used UKR infrastructure for military communications (because that is what will become available the further they advanced)? What problems do you think that might cause? Did you read the articles? Even bother to look at them? You complain about the sources, but I'm not sure you even read them.
If you did, you would have noted that they developed and were using an encrypted network that relied on those towers:
"Russian troop phone calls in Ukraine were intercepted after they used commercial phone lines to communicate. The military was forced to use the unencrypted lines of communication after their own attacks on 3G towers broke the Russian government-built 'Era cryptophone' that was meant to be used to communicate. The security failure allowed Ukraine’s defense intelligence agency to confirm that Russian general Vitaly Gerasimov, chief of staff of the 41st Army, was killed." ( Source)
So, destroying them took out their own network, and they had no other way to securely communicate. And they didn't have enough of the encrypted handsets in the first place.
If you think there's an issue with doing that, that would also seem point to poor planning in advance of an invasion, because that was how the handsets were designed.
|
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 25,957
|
Post by petep on Sept 15, 2022 17:54:37 GMT
As much as I’d love to see Putin and Russia suffer for all this
It’s interesting to see all these “rules” in war.
Someone breaks into my home to harm me or my family I’m not sure what rule book I would follow.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,410
|
Post by thor on Sept 16, 2022 6:04:38 GMT
'Destroying towers needed for communications work.' Once again you are telling me you have very little idea that you know much about military operations. Focus. That is what we are discussing. You feel that the RUS army should have used UKR infrastructure for military communications (because that is what will become available the further they advanced)? What problems do you think that might cause? Did you read the articles? Even bother to look at them? You complain about the sources, but I'm not sure you even read them.
If you did, you would have noted that they developed and were using an encrypted network that relied on those towers:
"Russian troop phone calls in Ukraine were intercepted after they used commercial phone lines to communicate. The military was forced to use the unencrypted lines of communication after their own attacks on 3G towers broke the Russian government-built 'Era cryptophone' that was meant to be used to communicate. The security failure allowed Ukraine’s defense intelligence agency to confirm that Russian general Vitaly Gerasimov, chief of staff of the 41st Army, was killed." ( Source)
So, destroying them took out their own network, and they had no other way to securely communicate. And they didn't have enough of the encrypted handsets in the first place.
If you think there's an issue with doing that, that would also seem point to poor planning in advance of an invasion, because that was how the handsets were designed.
Aside from the fact that you are dodging the questions I have been asking you, good job confirming what I have been telling you. Ironing out these problems takes YEARS of experience at the staff level. Clearly, they did not have those. Now, at the execution level, what else do you might think it would take? Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations? |
|
|
|
Post by Lomelis on Sept 16, 2022 8:57:05 GMT
I imagine the people in eastern Ukraine who have been in open civil war against the government of Ukraine for several years are likely open to direct Russian involvement. I don't have any polls, do you? So your 1/3 number was fictional and was actually 1/5 and you have no idea at all of the extent of support for Russia, especially given the hostile actions of Russia and the devastation wrought by their optional needless war. . At one point the Russians did control over 1/3 of the territory. And now it's dropped to about 1/5. This will always be fluid as one side takes or loses territory. So you don't have any polls stating otherwise. A simple no would have sufficed but you can't be honest. |
|
|
|
Post by Lomelis on Sept 16, 2022 8:59:42 GMT
Russians have been striking targets across Ukraine and Russian troops are literally right across the river. They didn't flee from Ukraine like the propaganda portrays it. They haven't yet fled from all of Ukraine, that's true. Once a force has advanced far enough from a bridge, with current weapons available to the Russians, that bridge is at low risk. Execpt the Ukrainians blew up those bridges. The same bridges they would need to sustain their own supply lines if they wished to advance beyond those rivers. |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 13:52:19 GMT
Aside from the fact that you are dodging the questions I have been asking you, good job confirming what I have been telling you. Ironing out these problems takes YEARS of experience at the staff level. Clearly, they did not have those. Now, at the execution level, what else do you might think it would take? Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations? What's obvious as that you don't know much about this conflict, but still want to maintain an air of superiority.
This last exchange is a good example. You accuse me of not understanding military operations, even though I'm telling you exactly what the Russian military did, which you don't know because you haven't bothered to read anything.
So, given your ignorance of these things, should I think you know anything about the Chechen Wars or any of these other operations? Or that you're somehow going to educate me?
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,410
|
Post by thor on Sept 16, 2022 15:46:09 GMT
Aside from the fact that you are dodging the questions I have been asking you, good job confirming what I have been telling you. Ironing out these problems takes YEARS of experience at the staff level. Clearly, they did not have those. Now, at the execution level, what else do you might think it would take? Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations? What's obvious as that you don't know much about this conflict, but still want to maintain an air of superiority.
This last exchange is a good example. You accuse me of not understanding military operations, even though I'm telling you exactly what the Russian military did, which you don't know because you haven't bothered to read anything.
So, given your ignorance of these things, should I think you know anything about the Chechen Wars or any of these other operations? Or that you're somehow going to educate me?
You are still fucking this up, demos. Are you afraid to answer the questions I posed to you? Or are you emotionally invested in this? |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 15:53:24 GMT
You are still fucking this up, demos. Are you afraid to answer the questions I posed to you? Or are you emotionally invested in this? The only one getting emotional appears to be you.
There's nothing to answer. You don't know anything about what's going on and have no insight to offer. If you did, you would've offered it up already. You just want to act like you know something; that's all this question game is about.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,410
|
Post by thor on Sept 16, 2022 15:54:56 GMT
You are still fucking this up, demos. Are you afraid to answer the questions I posed to you? Or are you emotionally invested in this? The only one getting emotional appears to be you.
There's nothing to answer. You don't know anything about what's going on and have no insight to offer. If you did, you would've offered it up already. You just want to act like you know something.
I have asked you questions to gauge your knowledge. You have failed to answer them. Do you concede yet, or are you going to triple-down? |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 15:59:03 GMT
I have asked you questions to gauge your knowledge. You have failed to answer them. Do you concede yet, or are you going to triple-down? And in the process revealed that its you have no knowledge about the Russian military and what its been doing.
So, now you're just flailing about whining about questions you yourself probably don't even have an answer to because you don't know what's going on.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,410
|
Post by thor on Sept 16, 2022 16:07:57 GMT
I have asked you questions to gauge your knowledge. You have failed to answer them. Do you concede yet, or are you going to triple-down? And in the process revealed that its you have no knowledge about the Russian military and what its been doing.
So, now you're just flailing about whining about questions you yourself probably don't even have an answer to because you don't know what's going on.
 So you are trying to run from the questions I have posed to you. OK. Again: At the execution level, what else do you might think it would take? Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations? |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 16:43:51 GMT
So you are trying to run from the questions I have posed to you. OK. You mean questions like this: "You feel that the RUS army should have used UKR infrastructure for military communications (because that is what will become available the further they advanced)?"
When if you actually bothered to read something, you would see that's exactly what they intended to do because of how the system was designed.
You don't have any insight to offer because you don't know anything, and as proof of that, you ask stupid questions like the one above.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,096
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 16, 2022 18:13:26 GMT
So you are trying to run from the questions I have posed to you. OK. You mean questions like this: "You feel that the RUS army should have used UKR infrastructure for military communications (because that is what will become available the further they advanced)?"
When if you actually bothered to read something, you would see that's exactly what they intended to do because of how the system was designed.
You don't have any insight to offer because you don't know anything, and as proof of that, you ask stupid questions like the one above.
Hey, how about answering the questions Thor posed to you? Or are you determined to run away repeatedly?
Here they are again:
At the execution level, what else do you might think it would take?
Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations?
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 18:24:30 GMT
Hey, how about answering the questions Thor posed to you? Or are you determined to run away repeatedly?
Here they are again:
Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations?
Let's not forget that the only reason he asked this question to begin with is because I pointed out this statement - "Furthermore, we are talking about fighting a fluid, mobile campaign along multiple axises of advance, which is something the aggressor hasn't done in over 75 years" - was wrong.
His questions are just trying to cover-up for his own ignorance.
If there's some salient point here, let him make it.
And as long as we're on the topic. Why doesn't he answer questions. Like: "so why would it be a given that taking Kyiv would allow them to just roll up the rest of the country? There would've been no opposition, none? Would've completely collapsed?"
Did he run away from that? He sure didn't answer it.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,096
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 16, 2022 18:30:54 GMT
Hey, how about answering the questions Thor posed to you? Or are you determined to run away repeatedly?
Here they are again:
Also, what are the differences between the Chechen Wars and Operation Bagration and the Vistula-Oder Operations as regards to large-scale maneuver operations?
Let's not forget that the only reason he asked this question to begin with is because I pointed out this statement - "Furthermore, we are talking about fighting a fluid, mobile campaign along multiple axises of advance, which is something the aggressor hasn't done in over 75 years" - was wrong.
His questions are just trying to cover-up for his own ignorance.
If there's some salient point here, let him make it.
And as long as we're on the topic. Why doesn't he answer questions. Like: "so why would it be a given that taking Kyiv would allow them to just roll up the rest of the country? There would've been no opposition, none? Would've completely collapsed?"
Did he run away from that? He sure didn't answer it.
How ironic that you accuse Thor of running away from your question when you just ran away from mine.
Here it is again:
"At the execution level, what else do you might think it would take?"
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 18:37:54 GMT
How ironic that you accuse Thor of running away from your question when you just ran away from mine.
Here it is again:
"At the execution level, what else do you might think it would take?"
Since it's his question - because you just want to parrot him - I'll assume he's talking about NCOs and other officers that Russia lacks. Is there a point here that refutes anything I've said? Or just more pointless questions? |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,096
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 16, 2022 18:39:57 GMT
How ironic that you accuse Thor of running away from your question when you just ran away from mine.
Here it is again:
"At the execution level, what else do you might think it would take?"
Since it's his question - because you just want to parrot him - I'll assume he's talking about NCOs and other officers that Russia lacks. Is there a point here that refutes anything I've said? Or just more pointless question?
Seemed to me that Thor asked you a simple question that you ignored.
Why did you ignore his question?
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 16, 2022 18:43:04 GMT
Seemed to me that Thor asked you a simple question that you ignored.
Why did you ignore his question? So, you don't have a point either. Got it. |
|
