|
Post by VYPR on Sept 12, 2022 0:23:54 GMT
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 0:29:42 GMT
Anne Applebaum. Big surprise there.
Might want to hold off on the parade until you see if Ukrainian forces can consolidate their hold on the territory they recaptured.
If they can, it will certainly help their negotiating position.
Though I suspect any negotiated settlement ends with Crimea and parts of Donbas still in Russian hands (similar to the terms that were being discussed early on in this conflict).
|
|
|
Post by VYPR on Sept 12, 2022 0:41:22 GMT
Anne Applebaum. Big surprise there. Might want to hold off on the parade until you see if Ukrainian forces can consolidate their hold on the territory they recaptured. If they can, it will certainly help their negotiating position. Though I suspect any negotiated settlement ends with Crimea and parts of Donbas still in Russian hands (similar to the terms that were being discussed early on in this conflict). What's Anne wrong on? Russia is by all accounts filling their depleted ranks with prison recruits and syrians. One of the reasons for the rapid Ukrainian advance was how thinly held the Russian captured territories actually were. Russia has exhausted their modern armaments with no way to replenish. Indications are they are buying shells and rockets from....North Korea. Russia has upwards of 80,000 dead and wounded. Their military is decimated. Their troops are completely unmotivated.
|
|
|
Post by Lomelis on Sept 12, 2022 0:42:37 GMT
Pretty sure that a stalemate is going to occur along the banks of the Dnieper River and one of its tributaries that cuts across to the Russian border at some point. Basically a natural geographic boundary that cuts off southeastern and some of eastern Ukraine. There will be gains and losses on both sides but eventually borders will be fortified along more defensible terrain and neither side will be able to advance and hold territory. Hard to effectively supply an army across a river when the bridges keep getting blown up and there is isn't effective air dominance to create and secure an air base where supplies could be flown into.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 0:51:00 GMT
Well, Putin isn't trying to reestablish the USSR for starters. They were getting ammunition and rockets from Belarus earlier in the conflict, so them relying on things from North Korea is probably something being played up more than is necessary (not good but not exactly out of the ordinary in this conflict either). Russia also hasn't called up any general mobilization and hasn't officially declared war, which is significant and suggest that the aims of this conflict aren't as grandiose as some people - like Applebaum - keep asserting. Reading about the recent counteroffensive, it seems Russian troops were spread thinly along long lines. So, as they regroup, this counteroffensive may slow and come into stiffer opposition. And we don't fully know how Russia is going to respond yet (they're striking grid infrastructure currently), something Ukraine's defense minister is concerned about before they have had a chance to consolidate their gains. Ukraine has its own ammunition and supply issues as well, as noted in this thread, which may hamper its counteroffensive.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,410
|
Post by thor on Sept 12, 2022 5:55:48 GMT
While I would welcome an outright victory by Ukraine, caution is advised, IMO. War is fluid, and while there have been claims of successful UKR deception operations, it is important to keep in mind that they come from the same school of operational thought as the RUS do.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 12, 2022 7:53:28 GMT
I'm starting to wonder if the impending Russian loss in Ukraine will lead to Putrid's downfall.
That would be very nice... providing someone more peaceful and productive takes Putrid's place.
It's way past time for Russia to enter the 21st century.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 12, 2022 8:11:34 GMT
It also makes me wonder what the world reaction would be if the USA was to suddenly invade Mexico or Canada, for reasons similar to Putrid's lies about Ukraine.
I also found this interesting article from June 10:
This makes about as much sense as saying that the USA should bow down to King Charles III and give up its sovereignty.
|
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 25,957
|
Post by petep on Sept 12, 2022 11:20:54 GMT
Would be nice to have one big Ukraine.
Reminds me of when the Arabs tried to Eliminate israel in 1967 and got their butts handed to them.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 17:05:00 GMT
This makes about as much sense as saying that the USA should bow down to King Charles III and give up its sovereignty. Not exactly, as there large Russian populations in these regions, specifically Crimea and Donbas, that either want to to rejoin Russia - or at the very least - want autonomy/independence from Ukraine.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 12, 2022 17:46:37 GMT
This makes about as much sense as saying that the USA should bow down to King Charles III and give up its sovereignty. Not exactly, as there large Russian populations in these regions, specifically Crimea and Donbas, that either want to to rejoin Russia - or at the very least - want autonomy/independence from Ukraine.
Except Putrid's goal has always been to annex ALL of Ukraine, not just Donbas and Crimea. Read the link I shared.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 18:01:34 GMT
Except Putrid's goal has always been to annex ALL of Ukraine, not just Donbas and Crimea. Read the link I shared. People keep saying this, but there's little evidence of that.
And even if you accepted that at the beginning of the conflict, the situation has clearly change and those maximalist goals no longer exist.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,097
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 12, 2022 18:09:59 GMT
Except Putrid's goal has always been to annex ALL of Ukraine, not just Donbas and Crimea. Read the link I shared. People keep saying this, but there's little evidence of that. And even if you accepted that at the beginning of the conflict, the situation has clearly change and those maximalist goals no longer exist.
Nope.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 18:17:33 GMT
Crimea and Donbas are Russian dominated regions that were long part of the Russia before Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine SSR in the 1950s. And both regions have long called for either returning to Russia or autonomy/independence. Russia has wanted Crimea back since the break up of the Soviet Union. Neither translates into Russia wanting to annex the whole of Ukraine. And if you look at their present occupation, these are the areas they're focused on.
|
|
|
Post by thecitizen on Sept 12, 2022 18:26:22 GMT
This makes about as much sense as saying that the USA should bow down to King Charles III and give up its sovereignty. Not exactly, as there large Russian populations in these regions, specifically Crimea and Donbas, that either want to to rejoin Russia - or at the very least - want autonomy/independence from Ukraine.
Well if they want to rejoin Russia, they are not putting out much effort to do so. 3 million of the 6.5 million people who lived in the Donbas fled after the invasion. euromaidanpress.com/2022/07/25/do-crimeans-await-liberation-from-russian-occupation/I think this rejoin Russia thing is all Russian propaganda
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 18:41:25 GMT
They held two referendums in the early 1990s overwhelmingly supporting autonomy, and that autonomous status was undermined. And many other things happened after that, such as Sevastopol declaring itself a Russian city - see here. They've been putting up effort for 30 years.
Obviously not everyone in those areas wants to be under Russian rule, particularly the Tatars who have come back to Crimea, but what's happening isn't some aberration. It follows from a very long history in these regions.
|
|
|
Post by Monster Man on Sept 12, 2022 18:53:29 GMT
Crimea and Donbas are Russian dominated regions that were long part of the Russia before Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine SSR in the 1950s. And both regions have long called for either returning to Russia or autonomy/independence. Russia has wanted Crimea back since the break up of the Soviet Union. Neither translates into Russia wanting to annex the whole of Ukraine. And if you look at their present occupation, these are the areas they're focused on. Whether or not Crimea or the Donbas regions were of some historical nature connected back to Russia... doesn't somehow validate Russian invasion of them and the further attempted invasion of further parts of Ukraine. Is it your belief that had the original battle plan executions succeeded in taking the capital and other major areas of Ukraine at the outset of the war, that Putin would have simply been like: OK, now that I have all this, I will give it back... Also, come on man, you are ignoring some long complex history here with this nonsense. Crimea was part of Russia... sure, but the Soviet Union spent a lot of time essentially decimating the local population by moving them and over time many Russians moved there, almost kind of like old folks going down to Florida here. There is a complex history of Sevastopol as well, with how the Black Sea Fleet was split up after the fall of the Soviet Union and with Russian forces there playing a heavy role in local support, forces, and personnel. Russia spent decades of playing up the propaganda in Crimea trying to stir up the discontent as well. You play this all off like the wonderful people of Crimea just wanted to go back to Russia and the benevolent Putin brought them back!
|
|
|
Post by thecitizen on Sept 12, 2022 18:59:19 GMT
They held two referendums in the early 1990s overwhelmingly supporting autonomy, and that autonomous status was undermined. And many other things happened after that, such as Sevastopol declaring itself a Russian city - see here. They've been putting up effort for 30 years.
Obviously not everyone in those areas wants to be under Russian rule, particularly the Tatars who have come back to Crimea, but what's happening isn't some aberration. It follows from a very long history in these regions.
There is always going to be naysayers. But Russia already occupied Crimea. At least parts of it. I saw no Cremains or those in Donbas waving Russia's flag. It's all Russian propaganda. We cannot use what happened in the 90's as a reflection of how these people feel today.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,194
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2022 19:07:53 GMT
Whether or not Crimea or the Donbas regions were of some historical nature connected back to Russia... doesn't somehow validate Russian invasion of them and the further attempted invasion of further parts of Ukraine. And I don't think I say it does. But as long as people want to talk about the history related to these conflicts, let's talk about it, because IF Ukraine does retake these territories, they'll be confronted with the same problems they've had for the last 30 years, which would allow for Russian interference. I think what happened was coercive diplomacy gone wrong, and I think this piece makes a good case for that. No one is ignoring that. I specifically mentioned the Tatars in post 15 - that would be the Crimean population decimated and has only returned in the last 30 years.
|
|
|
Post by Fiddler on Sept 12, 2022 19:53:29 GMT
I hear that the Russians are losing so badly that Right-Wingers are gonna start erecting statues to Russian Generals in our Southern states ..
|
|