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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 23:02:46 GMT
Confederate Statues Were Built To Further A 'White Supremacist Future' www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-futureWe shouldn't look at these monuments solely through the prism of our modern sensibilities. There is also a historical context to consider. We should consider the intention of the people who created these art pieces and the culture (and politics) they were operating within. History matters. But I am not sure this approach is going to yield any fruit for the Neo-Confederate statuephile cause. When we contextualize these monuments to traitors and slave holders, a very dark picture emerges. There is a message being sent here: "Don't look for equality before the law. Forget your civil rights. White supremacy is the law in this land and it will continue to endure in the same way as these beautiful statues." Consider the cluster of blue dots, the "monuments on court house grounds," and look at the timing. Yeah, there is a message there. And what is happening to these monuments today is the response.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 25, 2020 0:48:18 GMT
The monuments may also have been an expression of a continuing determination to rebel against authority and deny defeat.
I remember in the early 70's there was something of a romanticization of the rebel cause. It was expressed by songs such as "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down", which became a hit by The Band. I think the anti-war crowd identified, to some extent, with the rebel cause, and it even made the rebel Stars and Bars flag more acceptable, even among those who were horrified by slavery and bigotry, as I was.
On a professional visit to Georgia in the 80's I picked up a little fake license plate sized version of the Stars and Bars. I threw it on the rear shelf of the rental car I was driving, and I remember being passed at high speed on a two lane highway by a black person. I sort of wondered if the flag display (it was visible in reflection from the rear) had something to do with that. Later, I stuck it on the rear window of my camper shell in California. One day a black friend of mine took me aside to ask me why I was displaying it. He very gently informed me that it was offensive to many and something not good to display. I honestly didn't know it would be controversial. But as soon as I got home, I removed it, and soon threw it in the garbage.
Times change, people change, can't we all just get along?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 1:28:32 GMT
Southern Poverty Law Center? Could you find a less reputable source? They are preloaded to call anything white supremacy or racism. Of course they tried to make a case that white supremacy had something to do with the statues. That's all they do is tie everything to white supremacy.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 25, 2020 2:00:09 GMT
Yes, history matters.
It matters in the sense of lessons learned, or all too often, unlearned. And in that regard, it could be argued that hindsight is 50/50 far more often than it is 20/20.
History also matters as it provides context, and in that it is just as unerring as it is in hindsight. But sometimes a light shines through the cobwebs enough to illuminate what has been done so clearly as to make our current course of action, that which must be done, perfectly clear.
That is what is happening now. The challenge is to remain focused and in that moment of clarity as long as humanly possible. Take the statues down.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 2:06:48 GMT
Trump is so fucked on this.
There's no keeping the fact for why these were raised: "they were built as a defiant stand against desegregation and admitting the black man was equal" out of the public discourse.
He's doubling down on arguments that have already lost. He's done with being president. He's just gonna make a grand exit.
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 2:10:30 GMT
Southern Poverty Law Center? Could you find a less reputable source? They are preloaded to call anything white supremacy or racism. Of course they tried to make a case that white supremacy had something to do with the statues. That's all they do is tie everything to white supremacy.
The SPLC is pure shit. They are a horribly biased and unreliable organization.
But you can research the dates these statues were raised independent of the SPLC's analysis. Those are facts. There is no spin. There is no bias. And Occam's Razor serves us well in determining the arguments for putting them in place.
It's done. It's over. You resisted moving these to a place for a reverence for history for too long. You don't get to decide anymore. I'm not saying that to you as if I'm saying it. I'm saying it because it's reality. People who defended these statues defended them long past the point of reasonableness. So an unreasonable response shouldn't be so surprising.
And the longer it takes Trump to admit this and move the fuck on ... the more water his sinking campaign takes on.
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 3:39:38 GMT
Confederate Statues Were Built To Further A 'White Supremacist Future' www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-futureWe shouldn't look at these monuments solely through the prism of our modern sensibilities. There is also a historical context to consider. We should consider the intention of the people who created these art pieces and the culture (and politics) they were operating within. History matters.But I am not sure this approach is going to yield any fruit for the Neo-Confederate statuephile cause. When we contextualize these monuments to traitors and slave holders, a very dark picture emerges. There is a message being sent here: "Don't look for equality before the law. Forget your civil rights. White supremacy is the law in this land and it will continue to endure in the same way as these "beautiful" statues." Consider the cluster of blue dots, the "monuments on court house grounds," and look at the timing. Yeah, there is a message there. And what is happening to these monuments today is the response. Yeah, that ignorant Yankee fiction never seems to go away, does it? Especially when it's published by the racist filth at the SPLC. None of the Confederate statues were erected as a message of "white supremacy"; that's just a lie designed to excuse this ongoing purge. Just as the Nazis called the Jews "untermenchen" as the Brownshirts were undertaking their Kristallnacht, the race pimps and their liberal minions have to concoct lies to justify their savagery.
These monuments were erected to honor courageous men who fought for the good cause of reestablishing the limiting boundaries around a powerful federal government. They legally broke away rather than going after the existing government, meaning there was no treason and no rebellion. They were not traitors and very few were "slaveholders". The monuments later erected simply celebrated the regular soldiers that fought for each community. Most units on both sides were made up of friends and family from the same town or area, not random guys from across the country.
And, yes, history matters. Posting this NPR fecal matter demonstrates a rather shallow grasp of the subject.
So, let's have a look at this timeline of yours. In 1865, the South was economically devastated thanks to to the terroristic tactics of the Union Army. From 1865 until the end of 1876, the South was occupied and bled white by the carpetbagger parasites and the corrupt Union military scum, so not many monuments could be afforded. From 1877 to 1890, much of the South was still trying to recover from the occupation and the resultant poverty and misery. But as the 19th century's last decade dawned, the old soldiers on both sides began to record their remembrances and gather for reunions. Hundreds and thousands of accounts were published. Families wanted to find out what Grandpa did during the war and were proud of him for it. The United Daughters of the Confederacy began raising private money to honor family members who were soldiers. Cities and states began honoring local units and the leaders who had lead a legal secession from a government bent on increasing control and celebrating a ragtag bunch who had managed a four year struggle against one of the world's mightiest invaders, the U.S., who should have overwhelmed them. Southerners fought like hell to protect their homes and families....because the Yankees were "down here". Nothing more or less.
So, from 1890 to 1920, the former Confederates got old and many died, causing their friends and family to honor their service in that lost cause before they were gone. None of those rituals and monuments had anything to do with "white supremacy", nor do as these statues have anything to do with that today. These statues were the gravemarkers...the headstones...of the Confederacy. The filth tearing them down now are razing a graveyard; what kind of low life tears up a grave?
Let's talk about the stupidity among the dots on tyour graph about Plessy, the founding of the NAACP and the KKK. Plessy was an affirmation of laws already being made, so it was no motivator for statues. Strike one. The NAACP was founded in New York after a series of race riots in SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS. That organization was still in its infancy when the monument building waned around 1920. Strike two. And the original KKK in the South died in the 1870's, and the version that showed up in 1915 tended to sprout everywhere BUT the South. Google the pictures from that 1915-1925 era of the KKK: they are all flying AMERICAN flags in Northern cities! Again, not the South. Strike three. And Jim Crow and black code laws were also present in the North. That's why most blacks live in the South until the early 1900s; the North didn't want them.
So, I've proven that the monuments erected in 1890-1920 were not racially motivated, so let's look at the 1950s and 1960s. Now why would there be monuments during that time? Let's do a little ciphering, shall we?....the year 1861 plus 100 years is.....well, how about that!...the second peak of little red and blue dots correspond to the centennial of the War Between the States!
Oops. Again, not "white supremacy".
And that, my friend shows just how stupid the SPLC is. If they were in any way objective, they would have reflected ALL of the other reasons unrelated to "white supremacy" on their grapic and I wouldn't have had to school you on the subject.
Looking for a true explanation for the rabid purging of these century plus old harmless monuments? Here you go: Animals tend to act on instinct; some creatures will instinctively destroy what they don't understand or things that frighten them. Complexity, nuance and historical detail frightens them, like low IQ children trying to figure out differential equations. Moreover, the real message of the monuments....courage in the face of tyranny...liberty or death....scares the hell out of the left today.
Not one of the statues being attacked represents what is alleged by the race pimps, animals and perverts trying to tear them all down, nor do any of them have anything to do with the death of George Floyd. Remember him? Remember the fiction that this was all about the police?
Class dismissed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 3:50:56 GMT
The monuments may also have been an expression of a continuing determination to rebel against authority and deny defeat.
I remember in the early 70's there was something of a romanticization of the rebel cause. It was expressed by songs such as "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down", which became a hit by The Band. I think the anti-war crowd identified, to some extent, with the rebel cause, and it even made the rebel Stars and Bars flag more acceptable, even among those who were horrified by slavery and bigotry, as I was.
On a professional visit to Georgia in the 80's I picked up a little fake license plate sized version of the Stars and Bars. I threw it on the rear shelf of the rental car I was driving, and I remember being passed at high speed on a two lane highway by a black person. I sort of wondered if the flag display (it was visible in reflection from the rear) had something to do with that. Later, I stuck it on the rear window of my camper shell in California. One day a black friend of mine took me aside to ask me why I was displaying it. He very gently informed me that it was offensive to many and something not good to display. I honestly didn't know it would be controversial. But as soon as I got home, I removed it, and soon threw it in the garbage.
Times change, people change, can't we all just get along?
How have the people changed? They've gotten so stupid that I fear for the country. I hear the "Stars and Bars" from folks who don't have a clue at all. The "Star and Bars" was the first National Flag of the Confederate States of America. It looks like this:
An intelligent person knows that the flag to which you refer is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (square) or more commonly today, the Naval Jack (rectangular).
Can't we just get along? Hell, it ain't us rioting, burning and knocking chunks out of the MLK monument, now is it? When is it our turn to trash everything that offends us? Oh wait, normal people don't do that, just animals.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 25, 2020 4:00:30 GMT
Trump is so fucked on this. There's no keeping the fact for why these were raised: "they were built as a defiant stand against desegregation and admitting the black man was equal" out of the public discourse. He's doubling down on arguments that have already lost. He's done with being president. He's just gonna make a grand exit. Queshank
Seriously?
Or is this yet another Qrank feint?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 4:11:02 GMT
If only it were that easy. You say the soldiers on both sides started to meet and gather for reunions as the 19th century dawned... well that's actually off by about 35 years. www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/confederate-veterans-associations.htmlIf you look you will see that Union groups were meeting and remembering early after the war ended as well. The KKK formed in 1866 so its rather obvious that some ex-Confederates were regularly meeting. You will also note a rather constant rate of statue building from 1866 through the 1880's, with an uptick right around 1890-4, which puts us right in the middle of a civil rights struggle and a period where white folks were looking to legally limit the civil rights of black people through Jim Crow laws. You act as if that context should simply be ignored. This is all coincidental. Ignore the correlation with the broader cultural context. Those statues had no political message. It was all about honoring grandpa. Uh huh.
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Post by jasmine on Jun 25, 2020 4:12:25 GMT
Maybe they were built to pay tribute to great individuals?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 4:14:29 GMT
So, I've proven that the monuments erected in 1890-1920 were not racially motivated, so let's look at the 1950s and 1960s. Now why would there be monuments during that time? Let's do a little ciphering, shall we?....the year 1861 plus 100 years is.....well, how about that!...the second peak of little red and blue dots correspond to the centennial of the War Between the States!
No. You didn't. You gave more pieces of evidence for the redoubled anti black prejudice in the South. As people remembered "why" the Southerners fought.
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 4:17:05 GMT
Maybe they were built to pay tribute to great individuals?
"Great individuals?"
You mean generals who fought ... well and with *tremendous* passion ... to preserve the institution of slavery.
Is that "great" in your eyes?
Do you still really have to wonder why people who espouse those viewpoints have an uphill battle to convince people they're not racists?
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 4:18:40 GMT
Let's talk about the stupidity among the dots on tyour graph about Plessy, the founding of the NAACP and the KKK. Plessy was an affirmation of laws already being made, so it was no motivator for statues. Strike one. The NAACP was founded in New York after a series of race riots in SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS. That organization was still in its infancy when the monument building waned around 1920. Strike two. And the original KKK in the South died in the 1870's, and the version that showed up in 1915 tended to sprout everywhere BUT the South. Google the pictures from that 1915-1925 era of the KKK: they are all flying AMERICAN flags in Northern cities! Again, not the South. Strike three. And Jim Crow and black code laws were also present in the North. That's why most blacks live in the South until the early 1900s; the North didn't want them. Plessy was the worst Supreme Court ruling in history and it clearly shows the "spirit of the age." The ruling is legally incoherent and that's why it didn't hold. It was a political conclusion in search of a legal justification, and ultimately no justification could be sustained. Plessy, Jim Crow and the formation of the KKK all occurred in this early period after the Civil War, as a response to a group of people enjoying a newly won freedom and their struggle to come up. The NAACP was part of the come up. You yourself are mentioning race riots. Clearly, there was a racial struggle happening here. To suggest otherwise is to ignore history. Yet that context somehow doesn't factor in when we consider why there were so many Confederate monuments erected in these periods of heightened racial anxiety?! Its all just a coincidence? Sorry bro. That's a bridge too far for anyone who is not a dyed-in-the-wool racist.
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Post by jasmine on Jun 25, 2020 4:23:29 GMT
Maybe they were built to pay tribute to great individuals?
"Great individuals?"
You mean generals who fought ... well and with *tremendous* passion ... to preserve the institution of slavery.
Is that "great" in your eyes?
Do you still really have to wonder why people who espouse those viewpoints have an uphill battle to convince people they're not racists?
Queshank To the people that built and erected and financed these monuments, these figures were great people. That’s what matters. i don’t have much regard for people like MLK, but I accept that a lot of people regard him as a great individual worth erecting a statue for. You certainly don’t see me trying to take it down.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 25, 2020 4:27:07 GMT
Maybe they were built to pay tribute to great individuals?
Like the statues of Hitler, Tojo, Attila the Hun, and Genghis Khan in your front yard?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 4:27:24 GMT
"Great individuals?"
You mean generals who fought ... well and with *tremendous* passion ... to preserve the institution of slavery.
Is that "great" in your eyes?
Do you still really have to wonder why people who espouse those viewpoints have an uphill battle to convince people they're not racists?
Queshank To the people that built and erected and financed these monuments, these figures were great people. That’s what matters. i don’t have much regard for people like MLK, but I accept that a lot of people regard him as a great individual worth erecting a statue for. You certainly don’t see me trying to take it down. MLK didn't kill anyone or defend slavery. Context is important.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 4:29:35 GMT
So, I've proven that the monuments erected in 1890-1920 were not racially motivated, so let's look at the 1950s and 1960s. Now why would there be monuments during that time? Let's do a little ciphering, shall we?....the year 1861 plus 100 years is.....well, how about that!...the second peak of little red and blue dots correspond to the centennial of the War Between the States! That's cute and all but the rate of statue building is flat from the mid 50's through the early 60's. It doesn't pick up until 1963-1965, which encapsulates the period when George Wallace blocked the schoolhouse door, not to mention the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. So much for the centennial. It seemed to pass without notice.
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Post by jasmine on Jun 25, 2020 4:36:30 GMT
To the people that built and erected and financed these monuments, these figures were great people. That’s what matters. i don’t have much regard for people like MLK, but I accept that a lot of people regard him as a great individual worth erecting a statue for. You certainly don’t see me trying to take it down. MLK didn't kill anyone or defend slavery. Context is important. That is irrelevant. As I said, these individuals were at one time regarded as heroes or worthy of having statues. You don’t have to like them, but that doesn’t give you the right to vandalize them or tear them down.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 25, 2020 4:43:11 GMT
"Great individuals?"
You mean generals who fought ... well and with *tremendous* passion ... to preserve the institution of slavery.
Is that "great" in your eyes?
Do you still really have to wonder why people who espouse those viewpoints have an uphill battle to convince people they're not racists?
Queshank To the people that built and erected and financed these monuments, these figures were great people. That’s what matters. i don’t have much regard for people like MLK, but I accept that a lot of people regard him as a great individual worth erecting a statue for. You certainly don’t see me trying to take it down. Where have you been, my love? A mean and stupid Jasmine has been using your account while you were away.
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