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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 17:51:29 GMT
That's the danger of mob rule; you wind up with a reign of terror that consumes all of the culture...and perhaps the nation.
All the more reason to have a respectable legal system, with a professional and fair police force and a system of law that values pluralism and liberty. When people lose respect for the "system" mob rule can replace it and no one wants that. This is why equality before the law and robust protections for civil rights are necessary to preserve freedom and civilization. This is why reactionary apologists for slave images at our court houses, Jim Crow legacies in our laws and the criminalization of large parts of every day life can never be consistent conservatives. Their worldview ensures chaos.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 17:55:10 GMT
It isn't the dates that are disputable but the reason. The reason is not only disputable, but laughable. The 'reason' they were installed was to demonstrate to uppity Blacks that no matter how the Civil War turned out white men were still in charge.. . it's obvious. The idea that it has nothing with race is utterly ridiculous. If your reason is so "obvious" and the monuments were allegedly all about race and "uppity blacks", it should be easy for you to provide direct cause and effect evidence. I'm guessing that you don't have anything that backs up your revisionist propaganda; neither did the others who peddled this narrative. These monuments were memorials to warriors, living and dead, nothing more or less. Not about race.
No one, including you, has been able to provide proof of the connection that you insist exists. Let's see the evidence rather than just your opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 18:33:38 GMT
No one, including you, has been able to provide proof of the connection that you insist exists. Let's see the evidence rather than just your opinion.
He asks for evidence! Then evidence ye shall have. Here is a snippet of the commencement speech (which clearly demonstrates the racial intent of the monuments) given at the dedication of "Silent Sam" by Julian Carr, in 1913, at the University of North Carolina: hgreen.people.ua.edu/transcription-carr-speech.htmlThe reference he makes to the Confederates and their service during the 4 years after the war is an allusion to the KKK and its campaign of terror that culminated in the black codes. The commencement speech for this apolitical funerary monument is surprisingly political. Odd. Color me surprised. Let's continue. The Wilson County Memorial Fountain was dedicated in 1926. What's racist about a fountain? Did I mention there were 2 fountains featured in this monument? Why 2? Why not 3? or 4? I wonder what the 2 fountains were supposed to symbolize? Shades of Plessy? Separate but equal? docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/483/They even labeled them! And they were in front of a court house! How much more evidence do we need to see before we consider the fact that maybe the ex-Confederates who built these monuments had a political message? It seems to me the onus is now on you to back up the claim (with evidence) that these monuments to Confederates are apolitical historical tributes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 18:37:49 GMT
That's cute and all but the rate of statue building is flat from the mid 50's through the early 60's. It doesn't pick up until 1963-1965, which encapsulates the period when George Wallace blocked the schoolhouse door, not to mention the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. So much for the centennial. It seemed to pass without notice. You do understand that they didn't just snap their fingers and a memorial appeared in 1963, right? It takes years of planning, which means that the work on these monuments started long before those unrelated Civil Rights events. Once again, these monuments were NOT about white supremacy. Rather than peddling your "there just has to be connection!" logical fallacy, let's see you make the case of a direct cause and effect relationship if you can.
Civil unrest is years in the making too.
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 18:44:09 GMT
I've been wondering what will happen in future years when some idiot wants to remove statues of Martin Luther King Jr.? That will be years from now, when the reason for having them has all but disappeared. None of us are going to live forever. I'm trying to imagine how that shoe gets on the other foot. What do you expect? Are minorities and white folks about to change places? Do we have a "no whites allowed" future to look forward to? I can imagine it now. "Hey Babe! I'm sorry I didn't bring your avocado toast today. Those damn Jamal Crow laws kept me from finding an Uber and I'll be damned if I am sitting in the back of the bus again." Sorry. I don't think that's what we are in for. Of course D-Man and the 4 Chan "science" crew might disagree.
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Post by Fiddler on Jun 25, 2020 18:54:52 GMT
The 'reason' they were installed was to demonstrate to uppity Blacks that no matter how the Civil War turned out white men were still in charge.. . it's obvious. The idea that it has nothing with race is utterly ridiculous. If your reason is so "obvious" and the monuments were allegedly all about race and "uppity blacks", it should be easy for you to provide direct cause and effect evidence. I'm guessing that you don't have anything that backs up your revisionist propaganda; neither did the others who peddled this narrative. These monuments were memorials to warriors, living and dead, nothing more or less. Not about race.
No one, including you, has been able to provide proof of the connection that you insist exists. Let's see the evidence rather than just your opinion.
You've demonstrated that you're not only capable but enthusiastic in denying the very words drawling from the mouths of traitorous Southerners when they freely admit to be willing to secede and wage war to protect the institution of slavery so I rather doubt you're open to a careful examination of the timing and of the racist scum pushing for these monuments to oppression.. They were erected by private groups usurping public space.
The facts are that unlike earlier monuments placed in cemeteries mourning dead Confederate soldiers .. Jim Crow era monuments glorifying treacherous Southern leaders were placed in city squares to make a statement. "Black boy know your place" ..
I know these kinds of people .. I grew up knowing and working with klansmen. I'm personally aware of the hate they hold on to to this day.
Again, as has been your entire miserable life, you find yourself on the wrong side of history ..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:00:01 GMT
What do you want to bet that if we combed through the rest of the speeches given at the various dedication ceremonies that celebrated the erection of these monuments, we would find them dotted with racial hatred not unlike that expressed by Mr. Carr in 1913?
And to be honest, it would be some work but it seems to me worth doing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:02:45 GMT
You do understand that they didn't just snap their fingers and a memorial appeared in 1963, right? It takes years of planning, which means that the work on these monuments started long before those unrelated Civil Rights events. Once again, these monuments were NOT about white supremacy. Rather than peddling your "there just has to be connection!" logical fallacy, let's see you make the case of a direct cause and effect relationship if you can.
Okay so they couldn't plan ahead of time to get these up for the 100 year anniversary? I don't think you are understanding the argument. We're not saying that the Civil Rights Act is the reason these monuments cluster in the mid 1960's. The point is the social climate of the times was one characterized by years of racial struggle and tensions and it is in this context that we must situate these monuments. Its not apolitical. As Que pointed to earlier, there is an element of virtue signaling involved with the creation of these statues. To reduce it all to a funerary purpose, while ignoring the fact they were largely created during periods of civil rights crisis, is naivety on stilts. That POV is too cute to be real. No, what's laughable is your lack of evidence to allow you to legitimately attach some hidden political meaning to monuments that exhibited no political message. Again, it's poor logic to pretend that two separate things are connected when there's no proof of that connection.
If I bury a family member in a Baptist church cemetery, does that mean that I'm secretly espousing pro-life views? Does that that mean I'm in Trump's corner? Yeah, it's just that foolish to make the same kind of assignment political views in the case of monuments. Sometimes it's just about the no political event in front of you, and not about any and every controversial political issue in sight. To link the two without proof is an egregious error in logic.
And both you and Q are wrong in calling this "virtue signaling", a 21st century technique of the undeserving to attempt to be recognized for something unearned. The monuments were virtue recognition, an acknowledgement of men whose courage was without question.
The "white supremacy" fiction about the monuments is little more than an imagined connection concocted to fit your preconceptions. A fairy tale to fit the left's intolerant conclusion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:15:04 GMT
No, what's laughable is your lack of evidence to allow you to legitimately attach some hidden political meaning to monuments that exhibited no political message. Again, it's poor logic to pretend that two separate things are connected when there's no proof of that connection.
I would read the rest of the thread before bringing up "evidence" again. Just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:16:44 GMT
The "white supremacy" fiction about the monuments is little more than an imagined connection concocted to fit your preconceptions. A fairy tale to fit the left's intolerant conclusion.
You have your own preconceptions that are preventing you from seeing the world as it actually is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:48:13 GMT
What do you want to bet that if we combed through the rest of the speeches given at the various dedication ceremonies that celebrated the erection of these monuments, we would find them dotted with racial hatred not unlike that expressed by Mr. Carr in 1913? And to be honest, it would be some work but it seems to me worth doing. Here's one to start us off. This one is from 1892. It is an actual scan of the original publication of the speech dedicating the Richmond Howitzer Monument. LINKIf you use the search function in the above link to find "race" in the dedication speech, an interesting quote shows up on pages 15 and 16. You might want to use the zoom feature to read it better:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:53:54 GMT
What do you want to bet that if we combed through the rest of the speeches given at the various dedication ceremonies that celebrated the erection of these monuments, we would find them dotted with racial hatred not unlike that expressed by Mr. Carr in 1913? And to be honest, it would be some work but it seems to me worth doing. Here's one to start us off. This one is from 1892. It is an actual scan of the original publication of the speech dedicating the Richmond Howitzer Monument. LINKIf you use the search function in the above link to find "race" in the dedication speech, an interesting quote shows up on pages 15 and 16. You might want to use the zoom feature to read it better: Wow. That spells it out in stark language. Great find. You know this research project could be turned into a book. A preliminary working title: "Why Were Confederate Monuments Built?"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 20:08:22 GMT
Here's one to start us off. This one is from 1892. It is an actual scan of the original publication of the speech dedicating the Richmond Howitzer Monument. LINKIf you use the search function in the above link to find "race" in the dedication speech, an interesting quote shows up on pages 15 and 16. You might want to use the zoom feature to read it better: Wow. That spells it out in stark language. Great find. You know this research project could be turned into a book. A preliminary working title: "Why Were Confederate Monuments Built?" That's hardly the only quote. There are others, but it's difficult to quote from that document and post it here. Search for "hand of nature" for example.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 25, 2020 20:18:07 GMT
Maybe they were built to pay tribute to great individuals?
Like the statues of Hitler, Tojo, Attila the Hun, and Genghis Khan in your front yard?
Interestingly, Genghis Khan is on the currency of Mongolia and there are plenty of statues. Just a matter of time passing, I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 20:21:33 GMT
What do you want to bet that if we combed through the rest of the speeches given at the various dedication ceremonies that celebrated the erection of these monuments, we would find them dotted with racial hatred not unlike that expressed by Mr. Carr in 1913? And to be honest, it would be some work but it seems to me worth doing. Here's number 2. This is from remarks made by the keynote speaker for the dedication of the "Memoria In Aeterna" statue in Tampa Florida in 1911. LINK
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demos
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Post by demos on Jun 25, 2020 20:27:14 GMT
Interestingly, Genghis Khan is on the currency of Mongolia and there are plenty of statues. Just a matter of time passing, I suppose. Genghis gets a bad rap imo. The Khanate - based on my understand/reading - was a pretty diverse empire, supported trade, was meritocratic, and respected freedom of religion/conscience. Sure, if you didn't surrender to the Mongol horde, you probably wouldn't live to enjoy all that, but you know, if you lived...
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2020 20:37:28 GMT
Maestro.. TL.. Bravo on finding those dedications.. Says it all.. i.e. evidence.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 25, 2020 21:01:49 GMT
What do you want to bet that if we combed through the rest of the speeches given at the various dedication ceremonies that celebrated the erection of these monuments, we would find them dotted with racial hatred not unlike that expressed by Mr. Carr in 1913? And to be honest, it would be some work but it seems to me worth doing. Here's one to start us off. This one is from 1892. It is an actual scan of the original publication of the speech dedicating the Richmond Howitzer Monument. LINKIf you use the search function in the above link to find "race" in the dedication speech, an interesting quote shows up on pages 15 and 16. You might want to use the zoom feature to read it better: Great find.
Sadly there are probably lots of white supremacists today that agree with its evil words.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 21:07:30 GMT
What do you want to bet that if we combed through the rest of the speeches given at the various dedication ceremonies that celebrated the erection of these monuments, we would find them dotted with racial hatred not unlike that expressed by Mr. Carr in 1913? And to be honest, it would be some work but it seems to me worth doing. Here's number 2. This is from remarks made by the keynote speaker for the dedication of the "Memoria In Aeterna" statue in Tampa Florida in 1911. LINKAnother one for the fire. I came across the following link by a historian who is looking at the same question we are: www.newsobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article186178233.htmlThis is the history our Neo-Confederates are assuring us is apolitical, merely historical and "funerary."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 21:26:19 GMT
Maestro.. TL.. Bravo on finding those dedications.. Says it all.. i.e. evidence. Thank you. You know it is striking.. Our Neo-Confederate friends insist that the statues were apolitcal, merely historical, without racial meaning, and then they double down on the claim again even in the face of indisputable evidence otherwise (in dedication speeches, commencement addresses, etc). This break with reality is, ironically enough, perfectly mirrored in their claim that the Civil War was not fought over slavery, a position they continue to double down on even in the face of overwhelming evidence, in the form of the various articles of secession which prominently mention fighting a war explicitly over slavery. In both cases the words of the very people involved are ignored in favor of some ahistorical theory. It is as if this Neo-Confederate understanding of history has no connection with what actually happened in the past.
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