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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 15:02:50 GMT
Yea do what I say or I will invade your ass. Don’t do what I say and I may change my mind. Only a fool would trust Putin
You already pointed out, yourself, that the other option is likely "catastrophe".
Would you choose catastrophe or trusting Putin and living and having a country?
I would fight for my freedom and independence. No country has a right to tell another country what to do or I will invade your country and kill your people. Who wants to negotiate with a country like that
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 15:11:30 GMT
Russia aggressively took over Crimea. Now they are aggressively trying to take over the entirety of Ukraine. The Ukrainian people oppose. They are not welcoming them with open arms. They posed no threat to Russia. So your excuses for Russia makes no senseAgain, who is making excuses for Russia? No one on this forum has. What has been shown is how Russia perceives U.S. and NATO actions in Eastern Europe which they view as a security threat. Whether you think those concerns are valid or not is not the point; the point is that what's happening isn't because Putin is crazy, or Hitler, or whatever other narrative people are offering up to ignore that he is a "rational" actor responding to perceived threats and thus there are actions and points of negotiation that can be taken to end this conflict. My mother always told me to judge people by what they do, not by what they say. Russia does not perceive us as a security threat. Putin perceive us as a security threat. He has jailed and killed everyone that speaks out against him and lies to his own people. He controls his media and disallows free speak all because he perceives it as a security threat. You may not think he is Hitler like or crazy, but this Ukrainian invasion is stupid and not well thought out. Half of his soldiers don’t even know why they are there
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 15:19:25 GMT
My mother always told me to judge people by what they do, not by what they say. Fine, you want to judge people by what they do: see Georgia in 2008. First, distinction without a difference; he's the leader of Russia (and has been for a long time). Second, NATO has been perceived as a security threat since Yeltsin. It's been a consistent Russian policy concern for 30 years. It has been a clusterfuck; there's no denying that.
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 15:31:15 GMT
You already pointed out, yourself, that the other option is likely "catastrophe".
Would you choose catastrophe or trusting Putin and living and having a country?
I would fight for my freedom and independence. No country has a right to tell another country what to do or I will invade your country and kill your people. Who wants to negotiate with a country like that
Someone who doesn't want what you rightly called "catastrophe". Someone who doesn't want to die. Someone who doesn't want Ukraine to become part of Russia. Because the most likely outcome of their choice to fight is continued death and destruction - catastrophe - until Russia has full control over Ukraine.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 15:35:00 GMT
My mother always told me to judge people by what they do, not by what they say. Fine, you want to judge people by what they do: see Georgia in 2008. First, distinction without a difference; he's the leader of Russia (and has been for a long time). Second, NATO has been perceived as a security threat since Yeltsin. It's been a consistent Russian policy concern for 30 years. It has been a clusterfuck; there's no denying that. And I hope you know that that Georgia thing is BS. He is the self imposed leader of a country and does not represent the majority of the people
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 15:43:33 GMT
And I hope you know that that Georgia thing is BS. What about it is BS?
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 15:46:28 GMT
Fine, you want to judge people by what they do: see Georgia in 2008. First, distinction without a difference; he's the leader of Russia (and has been for a long time). Second, NATO has been perceived as a security threat since Yeltsin. It's been a consistent Russian policy concern for 30 years. It has been a clusterfuck; there's no denying that. And I hope you know that that Georgia thing is BS. He is the self imposed leader of a country and does not represent the majority of the people
Did you know his approval rating is 71%? Up from 61% before the invasion?
Did you know that 66% of the Russian population blames the conflict on America, NATO or Ukraine? And 4% blame Russia?
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 16:02:02 GMT
And I hope you know that that Georgia thing is BS. He is the self imposed leader of a country and does not represent the majority of the people
Did you know his approval rating is 71%? Up from 61% before the invasion?
Did you know that 66% of the Russian population blames the conflict on America, NATO or Ukraine? And 4% blame Russia?
Did you know that most Russians don’t even know what the hell is going on in Ukraine? www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/04/russian-soldiers-ukraine-anger-duped-into-war
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 16:03:15 GMT
And I hope you know that that Georgia thing is BS. What about it is BS? It did not stop the spread of NATO
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 16:07:58 GMT
It did not stop the spread of NATO It stopped NATO expansion to Georgia and Ukraine, which is the point: they launched a war in Georgia to stop NATO expansion there.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 16:13:27 GMT
It did not stop the spread of NATO It stopped NATO expansion to Georgia and Ukraine, which is the point: they launched a war in Georgia to stop NATO expansion there. So you honestly believe that is the reason Putin invaded Georgia?
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 16:26:38 GMT
So you honestly believe that is the reason Putin invaded Georgia? Why do you think he did? Do you think he really cares about the separatists in Georgia which was part of his justification?
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Post by CadesCove on Mar 9, 2022 16:44:21 GMT
And I hope you know that that Georgia thing is BS. He is the self imposed leader of a country and does not represent the majority of the people
Did you know his approval rating is 71%? Up from 61% before the invasion?
Did you know that 66% of the Russian population blames the conflict on America, NATO or Ukraine? And 4% blame Russia?
Said the Russian polling agency. Didn't he win 75% of the vote or some such bullshit in his last election?
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 16:45:08 GMT
So you honestly believe that is the reason Putin invaded Georgia? Why do you think he did? Do you think he really cares about the separatists in Georgia which was part of his justification? Putin is attempting to rebuild the Soviet Union in his own image, first Geogia and Crimea and he won’t stop with Ukraine.
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 16:49:11 GMT
Putin is attempting to rebuild the Soviet Union in his own image, first Geogia and Crimea and he won’t stop with Ukraine. He's really not. If what you're suggesting is true, then he would've completely taken over Georgia by now, but he hasn't (it's been ~14 years since that invasion). And if this is his aim, it would also require invading the Baltic states and Central Asia. What about the current invasion leads you to believe that is realistic?
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 16:55:10 GMT
Did you know his approval rating is 71%? Up from 61% before the invasion?
Did you know that 66% of the Russian population blames the conflict on America, NATO or Ukraine? And 4% blame Russia?
Said the Russian polling agency. Didn't he win 75% of the vote or some such bullshit in his last election?
The numbers on blame for the conflict, at least, come from Levada Group. Pollsters not aligned with Putin, that broke away from their original organization when Putin took control of it.
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 17:03:30 GMT
Putin is attempting to rebuild the Soviet Union in his own image, first Geogia and Crimea and he won’t stop with Ukraine. He's really not. If what you're suggesting is true, then he would've completely taken over Georgia by now, but he hasn't (it's been ~14 years since that invasion). And if this is his aim, it would also require invading the Baltic states and Central Asia. What about the current invasion leads you to believe that is realistic? Putin is fixated on the idea that former Soviet Union satellite states like Ukraine are inherently Russian due to their former communist allegiances. While this isn’t true, it’s given Putin a mandate among his Moscow cronies to expand Russia’s reach across Europe. As for Georgia, there was no legal justification for Russia’s use of force to invade although he used the same excuse he used for Ukraine, to protect Osseitians from Georgian “genocide”. Georgia is still under threat of Russia, just like Ukraine is when they invaded Crimea. Russia occupies only 20% of its territory. If occupying Crimea was not enough for Putin and if Putin can occupy the entirety of Ukraine, don't think that he won't go back to Georgia
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 17:06:03 GMT
I think it's best to just ignore Wads at this point. He is incapable of understanding what's happening and is distracting from real discussion. Go away Russian bot
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rmwa
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Post by rmwa on Mar 9, 2022 17:13:30 GMT
Fuck Ukraine.
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 17:21:31 GMT
Putin is fixated on the idea that former Soviet Union satellite states like Ukraine are inherently Russian due to their former communist allegiances. He's really not. He's fixated on Ukraine as inherently Russian (and Belarus as well), because of his interpretation of history (see here). Hint: it has nothing to do with communism. But he hasn't done than in the ~14 years Russian troops in Georgia, which should tell you that it's not about reforming the Soviet Union. Regarding Russian minorities, after the Cold War, there were concerns about Russian minorities in Kazakhstan, leading to changes in Kazakh law to protect those minorities (such as recognizing Russian as an official language, etc.) - good discussion on that in Ahmed Rashid's The Resurgence of Central Asia and Dilip Hiro's Between Marx and Muhammad. And that's not exclusive to Putin; that has been a longstanding Russian concern and it doesn't always lead to invasion as the Kazakhstan example shows.
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