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Post by CadesCove on Mar 9, 2022 17:49:07 GMT
Said the Russian polling agency.  Didn't he win 75% of the vote or some such bullshit in his last election?
The numbers on blame for the conflict, at least, come from Levada Group. Pollsters not aligned with Putin, that broke away from their original organization when Putin took control of it.
Who are currently free to get information from an informed public? 🙄 |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 17:59:34 GMT
The numbers on blame for the conflict, at least, come from Levada Group. Pollsters not aligned with Putin, that broke away from their original organization when Putin took control of it.
Who are currently free to get information from an informed public? 🙄
No polling agency anywhere in the world has that, if by "informed" you mean "well-informed", fully informed" or "not mal-informed".
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 18:00:16 GMT
Putin is fixated on the idea that former Soviet Union satellite states like Ukraine are inherently Russian due to their former communist allegiances. He's really not. He's fixated on Ukraine as inherently Russian (and Belarus as well), because of his interpretation of history (see here). Hint: it has nothing to do with communism. But he hasn't done than in the ~14 years Russian troops in Georgia, which should tell you that it's not about reforming the Soviet Union. Regarding Russian minorities, after the Cold War, there were concerns about Russian minorities in Kazakhstan, leading to changes in Kazakh law to protect those minorities (such as recognizing Russian as an official language, etc.) - good discussion on that in Ahmed Rashid's The Resurgence of Central Asia and Dilip Hiro's Between Marx and Muhammad. And that's not exclusive to Putin; that has been a longstanding Russian concern and it doesn't always lead to invasion as the Kazakhstan example shows. How long did it take for him to go back to Ukraine after Crimea? Putin is fixated on all of the former USSR countries. www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057 And he is using his concern for minorities as an excuse |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 18:08:13 GMT
I would fight for my freedom and independence. No country has a right to tell another country what to do or I will invade your country and kill your people. Who wants to negotiate with a country like that
Someone who doesn't want what you rightly called "catastrophe". Someone who doesn't want to die. Someone who doesn't want Ukraine to become part of Russia. Because the most likely outcome of their choice to fight is continued death and destruction - catastrophe - until Russia has full control over Ukraine.
Well apparently, almost all Ukrainians want to fight for their for their rights and don't want to Kowtow to a dictator they can't trust. |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 18:09:47 GMT
Someone who doesn't want what you rightly called "catastrophe". Someone who doesn't want to die. Someone who doesn't want Ukraine to become part of Russia. Because the most likely outcome of their choice to fight is continued death and destruction - catastrophe - until Russia has full control over Ukraine.
Well apparently, almost all Ukrainians want to fight for their for their rights and don't want to Kowtow to a dictator they can't trust.
OK. People often make bad decisions.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 9, 2022 18:10:29 GMT
Someone who doesn't want what you rightly called "catastrophe". Someone who doesn't want to die. Someone who doesn't want Ukraine to become part of Russia. Because the most likely outcome of their choice to fight is continued death and destruction - catastrophe - until Russia has full control over Ukraine.
Well apparently, almost all Ukrainians want to fight for their for their rights and don't want to Kowtow to a dictator they can't trust. I’m not sure why they have such a hard time understanding this. They’ve been lobbying for the ukranians to just lay back and be raped and it’s simply not their choice. The ukranians are doing what they feel is in their interest |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 18:11:19 GMT
How long did it take for him to go back to Ukraine after Crimea? First, Russia never left. Second, it's been about 8 years, and there seems to have been a triggering event recently: The first came on Nov. 10, when the U.S. and Ukraine signed a Charter on Strategic Partnership, which asserted America's support for Kyiv's right to pursue membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The pact made it likelier than ever that Ukraine would eventually join NATO -- an intolerable prospect for Vladimir Putin. "It was the last straw," Mr. Service says. Preparations immediately began for Russia's so-called special military operation in Ukraine. ( Wall Street Journal) All of them? He hasn't used that as an excuse to invade the Central Asian republics or the rest of the Caucasus. Why? |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 18:16:12 GMT
Well apparently, almost all Ukrainians want to fight for their for their rights and don't want to Kowtow to a dictator they can't trust. I’m not sure why they have such a hard time understanding this. Why do you still think people don't understand this? Everybody does. We are watching it live on TV. Nobody is claiming it to be their own choice. Do you ever opine on political topics in which the choice is not yours? Like the policies of Canada, China, Russia, state's in which you don't live or vote? And nobody is lobbying for them to "lay back and be raped". That is one of the stupidest takes over the course of the 2 weeks or so of this war. You want to continue to have a discussion about what Russia should or shouldn't be allowed to do, while others have moved on from ideals to discussing reality and the options that are actually on the table. When given the choice between almost certain destruction of the state, the physical structures and human lives of much of the country, and the alternative of negotiating a peace deal, the peace deal, however un-ideal is the sensible option. You can keep cheerleading from the sidelines for the deadlier choice and screaming about how Putin is "brutal!!" and shouldn't get away with it. But unless you are going to suggest a better alternative, peace negotiations are the best play. And making a poor choice. |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 18:16:55 GMT
Well apparently, almost all Ukrainians want to fight for their for their rights and don't want to Kowtow to a dictator they can't trust.
OK. People often make bad decisions.
Yea, like making trump president |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 18:18:05 GMT
Well apparently, almost all Ukrainians want to fight for their for their rights and don't want to Kowtow to a dictator they can't trust. I’m not sure why they have such a hard time understanding this. They’ve been lobbying for the ukranians to just lay back and be raped and it’s simply not their choice. The ukranians are doing what they feel is in their interest Exactly |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 18:20:48 GMT
How long did it take for him to go back to Ukraine after Crimea? First, Russia never left. Second, it's been about 8 years, and there seems to have been a triggering event recently: The first came on Nov. 10, when the U.S. and Ukraine signed a Charter on Strategic Partnership, which asserted America's support for Kyiv's right to pursue membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The pact made it likelier than ever that Ukraine would eventually join NATO -- an intolerable prospect for Vladimir Putin. "It was the last straw," Mr. Service says. Preparations immediately began for Russia's so-called special military operation in Ukraine. ( Wall Street Journal) All of them? He hasn't used that as an excuse to invade the Central Asian republics or the rest of the Caucasus. Why? Things don't happen overnight. You are making excuses. Russia has not occupied the entirety of Ukraine. Putin is just not satisfied with the crumbs he is given. He wants the whole pie. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 18:23:33 GMT
Things don't happen overnight. You are making excuses. Russia has not occupied the entirety of Ukraine. Putin is just not satisfied with the crumbs he is given. He wants the whole pie.Putin and Russia have laid out their terms - over and over. Those terms fall far short of complete occupation of Ukraine. And #1 on that list of terms - over and over - is a neutral Ukraine. The war is intended to get Ukraine to agree to those terms, and if you notice, they've started scaling back the terms. You can see that in this thread. What Russia wants and what it gets (and vice versa for Ukraine) will evolve depending on how this conflict evolves. |
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Post by CadesCove on Mar 9, 2022 18:50:30 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 18:53:50 GMT
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Mar 9, 2022 18:55:15 GMT
""As Putin tries to reduce Ukraine to rubble, he is also turning Russia into a prison," Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland said during testimony to Congress on Tuesday."
But but but... Donald Trump says Putin is a genius!
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 9, 2022 19:06:08 GMT
I wonder if this is an explanation for why that convoy hasn't moved into Kyiv.
It could be a negotiating tactic. As in, they are avoiding sending the convoy in while negotiations are ongoing. Potentially a tell. That they want to pressure for continued negotiation rather than leveling Ukraine as fast as possible. It shows the prefer negotiation and fear maybe NATO stepping up if they were to take Kyiv.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 9, 2022 19:07:18 GMT
First, Russia never left. Second, it's been about 8 years, and there seems to have been a triggering event recently: The first came on Nov. 10, when the U.S. and Ukraine signed a Charter on Strategic Partnership, which asserted America's support for Kyiv's right to pursue membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The pact made it likelier than ever that Ukraine would eventually join NATO -- an intolerable prospect for Vladimir Putin. "It was the last straw," Mr. Service says. Preparations immediately began for Russia's so-called special military operation in Ukraine. ( Wall Street Journal) All of them? He hasn't used that as an excuse to invade the Central Asian republics or the rest of the Caucasus. Why? Things don't happen overnight. You are making excuses. Russia has not occupied the entirety of Ukraine. Putin is just not satisfied with the crumbs he is given. He wants the whole pie. They will never get it... Its odd too...or actually ironic... They champion this idea of freedom and liberty - calls themselves libertarian...yet they are literally championing enslaving people to avoid conflict... and you and I wads are typically at opposite ends of the spectrum on many issues...and here we are aligned It seems we both understand something jack nicholsons character in the departed said - no one gives it to you, you have to take it... Most every populace throughout the history of the world that was enslaved or under the thumb of some authoritarian and eventually became free, was never just granted freedom...they had to fight for it, literally or figuratively.... the ukranian people lived for decades under brutal authoritarian rule...many still alive and remember what it was like...since 1991 they've had a taste of freedom and they have been devouring it....and now they see it all slipping away... so they are fighting for their freedom... and they very may well lose this battle, be killed and their cities destroyed fighting for it....but that is what they want. And in the long term, over the next 25 years, I suspect Russia's world reputation has been so damaged beyond repair, that someday they will regain their country and their freedom I can see these so called libertarians telling people in different eras - slaves, women, blacks, jews etc - just sit back and take it, you'll avoid any conflict... easy to say when you are sitting as a free citizen... |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 9, 2022 19:12:11 GMT
I love this non sequitur straw man about libertarianism.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 9, 2022 19:16:00 GMT
I love this non sequitur straw man about libertarianism. simply looking at the positions of paleo, wads, ulysses, me, greg etc...which seems pretty aligned and comparing that against those here who claim to be libertarians...which seem pretty aligned its a stark contrast... |
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Post by thecitizen on Mar 9, 2022 19:24:34 GMT
Things don't happen overnight. You are making excuses. Russia has not occupied the entirety of Ukraine. Putin is just not satisfied with the crumbs he is given. He wants the whole pie.Putin and Russia have laid out their terms - over and over. Those terms fall far short of complete occupation of Ukraine. And #1 on that list of terms - over and over - is a neutral Ukraine. The war is intended to get Ukraine to agree to those terms, and if you notice, they've started scaling back the terms. You can see that in this thread. What Russia wants and what it gets (and vice versa for Ukraine) will evolve depending on how this conflict evolves. If he does not want complete occupation, then he would not be invading the complete country. Your problem is that you believe Putin is trustworthy enough to negotiate with. The rest of the world doesn’t |
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