petep
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Post by petep on Apr 2, 2024 19:50:50 GMT
So you concede that the Russian endgame was conquest. If we're talking about changing out the regime, then sure.
I don't think Russia/Putin wanted to take over all of Ukraine and govern it themselves.
Are the examples of one country who attacks another country, unprovoked - and attacks across the country even annihilating an inland capital - when regime change isn’t the goal. Or is this a give me these three sovereign territories and if you don’t I’ll attack your whole country - is ok - argument.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 2, 2024 20:47:41 GMT
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 3, 2024 7:48:04 GMT
What's our draft age? Back in the 1960's, I recall, if you weren't excused for any number of reasons, you could be drafted as early as 18...
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 3, 2024 13:44:27 GMT
What's our draft age? Back in the 1960's, I recall, if you weren't excused for any number of reasons, you could be drafted as early as 18... You have to register with Selective Service between 18-25:
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 3, 2024 16:05:14 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 5, 2024 19:41:31 GMT
On Ukraine aid:
"Peace" Plans:
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 8, 2024 21:32:20 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 9, 2024 16:33:34 GMT
Foreign Secretary David Cameron met with Trump to discuss Ukraine aid, NATO defense spending, and other issues. Nothing in the reports about how those discussions went:
And on another front: Source
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 10, 2024 17:52:32 GMT
More on the Cameron-Trump meeting:
On Ukraine's manpower issues:
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 11, 2024 14:47:45 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 12, 2024 18:45:59 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 15, 2024 17:21:20 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 16, 2024 17:40:33 GMT
Source
Source
We're not going to to that, because that's how we end up in a direct conflict with Russia (with the potential for that conflict to turn nuclear). It's the same reason why Russia isn't going to attack a NATO member state (despite all the bluster claiming otherwise).
And on the early 2022 peace talks: Source
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 16, 2024 21:15:58 GMT
Source
Source
We're not going to to that, because that's how we end up in a direct conflict with Russia (with the potential for that conflict to turn nuclear). It's the same reason why Russia isn't going to attack a NATO member state (despite all the bluster claiming otherwise).
And on the early 2022 peace talks: Source
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 16, 2024 21:17:32 GMT
^ Deterrence works both ways.
If it didn't, what's the point of Ukraine (or Sweden or Finland) joining NATO? There'd be no value in it.
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 16, 2024 21:51:57 GMT
^ Deterrence works both ways. If it didn't, what's the point of Ukraine (or Sweden or Finland) joining NATO? There'd be no value in it. Are you willing to bet the safety and security of people in other countries on your opinion?
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 16, 2024 21:59:49 GMT
Are you willing to bet the safety and security of people in other countries on your opinion? How about the opinion of states joining NATO for the last 30 years? They're willing to bet their safety and security on NATO membership.
So, is that membership worth something or not?
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 16, 2024 22:53:43 GMT
Are you willing to bet the safety and security of people in other countries on your opinion? How about the opinion of states joining NATO for the last 30 years? They're willing to bet their safety and security on NATO membership.
So, is that membership worth something or not?
Was the threat the same 30 years ago during the chaos after the WP broke up? No. The threat is far greater now, which is why the last two joined. My question was about Ukraine - Are you willing to bet the safety and security of people in other countries on your opinion? #FirstWorldProblems
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 17, 2024 14:36:30 GMT
Was the threat the same 30 years ago during the chaos after the WP broke up? No.According to whom? The Baltic Republics certainly thought it was a threat and were seeking membership immediately. Ukraine has considered it an ongoing threat since the 1990s. They've been trying to join since then. Georgia wants to join. Sweden and Finland just joined.
So, is NATO a deterrent or not? Your response seems to imply that it isn't. First, the issue you were addressing was about Russia attacking NATO countries (which Ukraine isn't), so your question wouldn't have made sense to be only about Ukraine. Second, if your question was solely about Ukraine, why use the plural? Also, Russia already invaded Ukraine - starting in 2014 - so how would this apply to what I said about Russia being deterred from invading NATO members?
But again it comes down to: is NATO a deterrent or not? If it is, then claims about Russia moving on the Baltic Republics, Poland, etc. are way overblown. If it's not, then there's no point in anyone seeking NATO membership.
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Post by MojoJojo on Apr 17, 2024 15:43:34 GMT
NATO membership is definitely a deterrent...how many members have been invaded?
This actually ties-in to the blame America argument as Russia witnessed their former republics join, one by one, and didn't want to lose Ukraine too.
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