thor
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Post by thor on Oct 19, 2022 21:20:24 GMT
Poor demos. Since Thucydides was too rough for you, you can try Plutarch and Tacitus. Might be easier. As usual, you don't have anything to offer.
You couldn't even read and understand my earlier post, so I don't believe you've ever tackled Thucydides. Not sure you can tackle a Far Side comic.
Believe or disbelieve as you will. But it doesn't change the reality that all three of those I cited are in my bookcase. And read to completion. Perhaps you want my copy of Gibbon? |
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 19, 2022 21:24:49 GMT
Believe or disbelieve as you will. But it doesn't change the reality that all three of those I cited are in my bookcase. And read to completion. Perhaps you want my copy of Gibbon? Got no reason to believe you.
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Post by limey² on Oct 19, 2022 22:12:46 GMT
It is eminently possible for more than one thing to be true at the same time. Here, I submit, are a few: 1. The US presence in Europe post-45 was to keep the "liberal world order" and its vibrant support for US economic/political pre-eminence nurtured 2. The US military is so absurdly bloated in part because of backscratching politics/business 3. The effect of (1) above has, in part, been to fertilise the development of genuinely beneficial political structures- beneficial to populations- in Western Europe. See, I get the feeling that because (1) and (2) are not particularly pure and noble, you're prepared to discard them as entirely without merit. Thus, by extension, because there's every chance that a serious commitment to medium term Ukranian support will benefit numerous dead eyed rapacious amoral commercial entities, you call a curse on all their houses. Despite (3). Let me add a 4th.
The American citizenry have been funding it at the expense of their own wellbeing.
1, 2 and 3 are all true limey. I'm not disagreeing with any of it.
The problem is 4. The American people have been doing without the benefits those Western European countries have been giving their citizenry so that those numerous dead eyed rapacious amoral commercial entities can profit long, long, loooonng before Putin even became the ruler of Russia. So much so in fact that we ... the American people ... thought that now finally we had defeated the Soviet Union we could start looking after our own.
But the Establocrats and the European elitists they have more in common with have other plans.
Your elitists had a chance to care about the American citizenry instead of their own profits when we sent a democratically elected president over there to start telling them we were getting tired and they'd have to start funding their own. (A guy who at the same time spent a great deal of time warning you all about your overreliance on Russian energy.) Their response was, to almost no one's surprise by then, identical to our own anti American Establocrat Party with just as much of a connection to the American people as your elites have ... mockery and laughter.
How's that been working out? It's gonna get worse.
This is what it's like to live at the end of a golden age limey.
One thing you could do to improve things for US citizens without affecting military spending is go for European style healthcare. Waaaaay cheaper. A huge boon to business and entrepreneurship. Boost to the economy. Huge tax cuts to spend on infrastructure or keep in people's pockets. This always comes to mind when Americans suggest (as I know you weren't) that socialised medicine is effectively funded by American taxpayers. |
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Post by limey² on Oct 19, 2022 22:21:13 GMT
I can't think of an instance of a modern democracy attacking a modern democracy; 1914 Germany was a semi-authoritarian state with significant monarchical/aristocratic control over policy. Since then? Turkey/Cyprus, 1974? Well, not necessarily modern. I did say historically. The Peloponnesian War for example. Rome and Carthage (republics, technically not democracies - though Rome had some democratic elements). Italian republics as well.
If Europe's current democracies weren't in an economic/political union and a military alliance dominated by a hegemonic power (important factors here), it would be interesting to see how conflicts were handled. Probably more like ancient Greece and Renaissance Italy than one might imagine.
And given Turkey's military's involvement in coups and changes of government, not sure it really counts.
The nature of EU supply chains and crossborder contracting means basically the economic elites won't be permitting any nonsense about military conflict between EU nations. That was the entire point of the original ECSC. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2022 22:22:38 GMT
Let me add a 4th.
The American citizenry have been funding it at the expense of their own wellbeing.
1, 2 and 3 are all true limey. I'm not disagreeing with any of it.
The problem is 4. The American people have been doing without the benefits those Western European countries have been giving their citizenry so that those numerous dead eyed rapacious amoral commercial entities can profit long, long, loooonng before Putin even became the ruler of Russia. So much so in fact that we ... the American people ... thought that now finally we had defeated the Soviet Union we could start looking after our own.
But the Establocrats and the European elitists they have more in common with have other plans.
Your elitists had a chance to care about the American citizenry instead of their own profits when we sent a democratically elected president over there to start telling them we were getting tired and they'd have to start funding their own. (A guy who at the same time spent a great deal of time warning you all about your overreliance on Russian energy.) Their response was, to almost no one's surprise by then, identical to our own anti American Establocrat Party with just as much of a connection to the American people as your elites have ... mockery and laughter.
How's that been working out? It's gonna get worse.
This is what it's like to live at the end of a golden age limey.
One thing you could do to improve things for US citizens without affecting military spending is go for European style healthcare. Waaaaay cheaper. A huge boon to business and entrepreneurship. Boost to the economy. Huge tax cuts to spend on infrastructure or keep in people's pockets. This always comes to mind when Americans suggest (as I know you weren't) that socialised medicine is effectively funded by American taxpayers.
Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Oct 19, 2022 22:29:38 GMT
Well, not necessarily modern. I did say historically. The Peloponnesian War for example. Rome and Carthage (republics, technically not democracies - though Rome had some democratic elements). Italian republics as well.
If Europe's current democracies weren't in an economic/political union and a military alliance dominated by a hegemonic power (important factors here), it would be interesting to see how conflicts were handled. Probably more like ancient Greece and Renaissance Italy than one might imagine.
And given Turkey's military's involvement in coups and changes of government, not sure it really counts.
The nature of EU supply chains and crossborder contracting means basically the economic elites won't be permitting any nonsense about military conflict between EU nations. That was the entire point of the original ECSC.
Another lookup chore (what can I say? I majored in Music and then Chemistry in college)...
ECSC:
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Post by limey² on Oct 20, 2022 2:02:16 GMT
One thing you could do to improve things for US citizens without affecting military spending is go for European style healthcare. Waaaaay cheaper. A huge boon to business and entrepreneurship. Boost to the economy. Huge tax cuts to spend on infrastructure or keep in people's pockets. This always comes to mind when Americans suggest (as I know you weren't) that socialised medicine is effectively funded by American taxpayers.
Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
Is America the only Western nation whose citizens accept gun rights & health control, rather than health rights & gun control? |
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thor
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Post by thor on Oct 20, 2022 4:22:28 GMT
Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
Is America the only Western nation whose citizens accept gun rights & health control, rather than health rights & gun control? Yes. Because Freedom. Or something. The Wingnuts on this board are are examples of why I Keep and Bear Arms. |
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Post by CadesCove on Oct 20, 2022 4:43:43 GMT
Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
Is America the only Western nation whose citizens accept gun rights & health control, rather than health rights & gun control? We're very proud of that.🙄 |
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Post by Lomelis on Oct 20, 2022 7:09:22 GMT
Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
Is America the only Western nation whose citizens accept gun rights & health control, rather than health rights & gun control? Is Britain the only country that is completely dependent on the US for defense? |
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Post by limey² on Oct 20, 2022 9:24:38 GMT
Is America the only Western nation whose citizens accept gun rights & health control, rather than health rights & gun control? Is Britain the only country that is completely dependent on the US for defense? Are we? Gosh. That must be quite the enjoyable fantasy for Americans ignorant of anything to do with matters military. |
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Post by MojoJojo on Oct 20, 2022 11:25:00 GMT
One thing you could do to improve things for US citizens without affecting military spending is go for European style healthcare. Waaaaay cheaper. A huge boon to business and entrepreneurship. Boost to the economy. Huge tax cuts to spend on infrastructure or keep in people's pockets. This always comes to mind when Americans suggest (as I know you weren't) that socialised medicine is effectively funded by American taxpayers. Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
The money going to aid Ukraine was NEVER going into our health care. That's a false opportunity cost. Although, that's what the GOP congress will use to gut the spending when they take charge in November. But, instead of diverting said funds into health care they'll lower taxes as that's all they've got. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2022 12:24:53 GMT
Practically the one issue I care enough about to consider "my issue" is European style healthcare for the American citizenry. It might just be the only thing I would bother to go vote for, having not voted in any elections since 2014.
But our Establocratic Party has neatly cockblocked that option for America by rigging the primaries against Bernie Sanders and backing rank and file Establocrats into the painted corner of defending and supporting the abysmal Affordable Care Act. Even from those advocating for European style healthcare. Having been programmed to link "health insurance" with "health care" by the very same programmers now trying to convince them to forego healthcare for their children and send America's funds to Ukraine to support the struggle over Ukraine's oil and gas deposits.
The money going to aid Ukraine was NEVER going into our health care. That's a false opportunity cost. Although, that's what the GOP congress will use to gut the spending when they take charge in November. But, instead of diverting said funds into health care they'll lower taxes as that's all they've got.
I'm all about directional accuracy these days Mojo.
It's either that or full scale revolution.
Pick your poison.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2022 13:33:42 GMT
A question for you tho Mojo. How come Establocrats like Biden can always find 40 billion here, 40 billion there to help serve the interests of oil companies, but can't find 40 billion here, 40 billion there to help the American people after working for the interests of "too big to fail" insurance companies to block single payer using the Establocrats 60 vote supermajority in Congress?
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 20, 2022 14:16:26 GMT
The nature of EU supply chains and crossborder contracting means basically the economic elites won't be permitting any nonsense about military conflict between EU nations. That was the entire point of the original ECSC. Yes, and the more international governing institutions you have like this (EU parliament, etc.), the more mechanisms for nonviolent dispute resolution, etc., the less reliance on war to achieve ends. IMO.
You need strong institutions, buy in, and someone/thing who can enforce a general peace (NATO and the US, e.g.).
If these didn't exist (like they didn't through much of history and even in much of the world today), I think you'd have a very different situation wherein even European democracies would possibly go to war with one another.
It's an interesting question to consider, and there's been a lot of discussion and debate about democratic peace theory over the years.
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thor
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Post by thor on Oct 20, 2022 14:22:09 GMT
Is Britain the only country that is completely dependent on the US for defense? Are we? Gosh. That must be quite the enjoyable fantasy for Americans ignorant of anything to do with matters military. To be fair to Shitbag, he failed in the USMC, so his ignorance and stupidity are understandable. |
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Post by MojoJojo on Oct 20, 2022 14:48:06 GMT
A question for you tho Mojo. How come Establocrats like Biden can always find 40 billion here, 40 billion there to help serve the interests of oil companies, but can't find 40 billion here, 40 billion there to help the American people after working for the interests of "too big to fail" insurance companies to block single payer using the Establocrats 60 vote supermajority in Congress?
Priorities. The big fish (read: donor class) have to eat first. If not for "one man - one vote" we'd have even less. Our great equalizer to the cash club. My vote is just as valid as Jeff Bezo's vote but I don't contribute to the parties or those running, who are dependent upon the parties' money, so my influence is simply my vote. Regardless, when the GOP gets the Congress we'll have to have some more tax cuts and that'll be the excuse to stop helping Ukraine. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2022 14:57:33 GMT
A question for you tho Mojo. How come Establocrats like Biden can always find 40 billion here, 40 billion there to help serve the interests of oil companies, but can't find 40 billion here, 40 billion there to help the American people after working for the interests of "too big to fail" insurance companies to block single payer using the Establocrats 60 vote supermajority in Congress?
Priorities. The big fish (read: donor class) have to eat first. If not for "one man - one vote" we'd have even less. Our great equalizer to the cash club. My vote is just as valid as Jeff Bezo's vote but I don't contribute to the parties or those running, who are dependent upon the parties' money, so my influence is simply my vote. Regardless, when the GOP gets the Congress we'll have to have some more tax cuts and that'll be the excuse to stop helping Ukraine. Yeah. War and defense spending are always going to come first. There's always money in the banana stand!
The only difference between you and I is I am no longer fooled into believing the Establocrats ever had other intentions.
And I'm also paying attention to the fact that the Establocratic Party has set up a party system to make damn sure little guys like you have no say. It's not all about "contributing to the parties." A big part of the Establocratic Party's ideology is based on the superdelegate system that literally gives the big fish in the Establocrat party two votes to your every one.
The Republican Party has no such anti democratic mechanism in place. Which is why The People have been able to take over the Republican Party and the Establocrats have doubled down on their own authoritarianism to keep riff raff like you and I from gumming up the works.
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 20, 2022 15:53:29 GMT
Yeah. War and defense spending are always going to come first. There's always money in the banana stand!  |
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 20, 2022 16:00:17 GMT
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