Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 10:20:01 GMT
While I wouldn't disagree that oil and gas is an important aspect of this conflict, I think the war has changed the dynamics enough that Ukraine's ties to the West are not such an existential threat to Russia's ruling elite. For example, Russia is finding other markets for its oil, including the Gulf States who are buying Russia oil. Also, since this conflict will end in some sort of negotiated settlement (there's not going to be some fantasized unconditional surrender), Russia will probably keep some of this oil and gas rich territory or gain access/rights to it in exchange for some concessions, e.g., Ukrainian membership in the EU.
At this point, the only way this conflict escalates into an existential threat is if NATO becomes involved in direct conflict with Russia (which some of the Baltic states seem to be wanting/encouraging).
The wild cards here are: 1. Military success by Ukraine. 2. De-carbonisation of energy It's plausible that Russia won't have the option to "keep some of this oil and gas rich territory"having been decisively defeated and physically removed. In such a scenario, possibly some grimly ugly "ethnic cleansing" of disputed regions, with Ukrain sending pro-Russians over the border with a few packing crates and a €1000 parting gift, will ensue. Several European nations are potentially less than 15 years from a non-fossil energy system right now. The medium term value of Ukranian deposits is in doubt. "Two bald men fighting over a comb" springs to mind. Disregarding all this,fact is, Russia's attack is entirely unjustifiable and entirely wrong. Assisting Ukraine is plainly the right thing to do. Only a bell-end would argue otherwise.
Seems an insulting thing to call your grandmother for wanting heat in the winter.
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 17, 2022 16:02:56 GMT
(Waiver: We're probably a little closer aligned on this than this post will suggest..)
Yabbut ... Russia's other markets include people repackaging Russian energy products for sale back to the EU. I think it was an article from you that I saw that little loophole being exploited. Altho take that with a grain of salt cuz I can't find a similar article in a five minute search behind all the propaganda sites blasting search engines.
I think that article is in this thread: Russia, Sanctions, and the Global Oil Market |
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 17, 2022 16:12:08 GMT
The wild cards here are: 1. Military success by Ukraine. 2. De-carbonisation of energy Regarding 1) I think a lot hinges on what they can achieve before winter really sets in, because after that a long stalemate is likely. And 2) this conflict may propel advances in the long term, but in the short term (most immediately), seems like there's going to be a lot of pain felt. And I wonder how that is going to impact elections (see Sweden and Italy). I don't disagree. And finding an end to this conflict is the right thing to do. That may involve Russia holding onto some territory, which will obviously offend a lot of sensibilities. |
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Post by limey² on Oct 17, 2022 21:10:57 GMT
The wild cards here are: 1. Military success by Ukraine. 2. De-carbonisation of energy It's plausible that Russia won't have the option to "keep some of this oil and gas rich territory"having been decisively defeated and physically removed. In such a scenario, possibly some grimly ugly "ethnic cleansing" of disputed regions, with Ukrain sending pro-Russians over the border with a few packing crates and a €1000 parting gift, will ensue. Several European nations are potentially less than 15 years from a non-fossil energy system right now. The medium term value of Ukranian deposits is in doubt. "Two bald men fighting over a comb" springs to mind. Disregarding all this,fact is, Russia's attack is entirely unjustifiable and entirely wrong. Assisting Ukraine is plainly the right thing to do. Only a bell-end would argue otherwise.
Seems an insulting thing to call your grandmother for wanting heat in the winter.
"Bell-end" is a gendered insult. Someone of the grandmotherly persuasion would likely be a "daft old biddy". |
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Post by limey² on Oct 17, 2022 21:14:16 GMT
The wild cards here are: 1. Military success by Ukraine. 2. De-carbonisation of energy Regarding 1) I think a lot hinges on what they can achieve before winter really sets in, because after that a long stalemate is likely. And 2) this conflict may propel advances in the long term, but in the short term (most immediately), seems like there's going to be a lot of pain felt. And I wonder how that is going to impact elections (see Sweden and Italy). I don't disagree. And finding an end to this conflict is the right thing to do. That may involve Russia holding onto some territory, which will obviously offend a lot of sensibilities. I just don't see how Russia holding on to territory taken at gunpoint and justified by lies can be remotely acceptable. At most, some arrangement akin to Balkans ines, with UN or other separation forces and a plan to ask the population- without coercion and in transparent ways- what they want. Even that is potentially rewarding Kremlin machinations. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 17, 2022 21:53:09 GMT
I just don't see how Russia holding on to territory taken at gunpoint and justified by lies can be remotely acceptable. Whether it's acceptable or not, that's probably going to be the way this conflict ends, i.e., some type of negotiated settlement.
I think people have a warped sense of how wars and conflicts end based on WW2. Cyprus would be a good example in this instance.
Given that majorities in those regions have historically wanted less connection to/involvement with the central government of Ukraine, yes, it probably would potentially reward them.
And given that history, if Ukraine recaptures those regions, Ukraine would have to do something with those people unless it wanted a continuation of the problems its had since independence. And that probably means removing them, forcing them out, etc., which isn't going to look pretty either.
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Post by limey² on Oct 17, 2022 22:17:29 GMT
I just don't see how Russia holding on to territory taken at gunpoint and justified by lies can be remotely acceptable. Whether it's acceptable or not, that's probably going to be the way this conflict ends, i.e., some type of negotiated settlement.
I think people have a warped sense of how wars and conflicts end based on WW2. Cyprus would be a good example in this instance.
Given that majorities in those regions have historically wanted less connection to/involvement with the central government of Ukraine, yes, it probably would potentially reward them.
And given that history, if Ukraine recaptures those regions, Ukraine would have to do something with those people unless it wanted a continuation of the problems its had since independence. And that probably means removing them, forcing them out, etc., which isn't going to look pretty either.
A Cyprus-style UN patrolled border might not be a terrible outcome. Obviously Cyprus itself is a tragic outcome, a border that really shouldn't be there.... however, given we can likely trust a Ukraine with an eye of Western status to behave well towards those within its borders, a commitment of (say) 15 years of blue helmets might be workable. I think expulsion of Russia from the UN SC would be good too, but that's highly unlikely. I lived in Cyprus for a couple of years by the way. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Oct 18, 2022 0:27:59 GMT
Seems an insulting thing to call your grandmother for wanting heat in the winter.
"Bell-end" is a gendered insult. Someone of the grandmotherly persuasion would likely be a "daft old biddy".
OK, had to look it up. Learn something every day...
"What does bell end mean?
"A bell end is slang the head of a penis. It’s used in UK as an insult for a jerk or someone acting stupid or contemptibly. It’s a bit similar to calling someone a dickhead."
Have never heard "bell end" here in the USA (nor in Ireland). But "dickhead" is all too common, and not just as a figure of speech.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 11:15:32 GMT
Seems an insulting thing to call your grandmother for wanting heat in the winter.
"Bell-end" is a gendered insult. Someone of the grandmotherly persuasion would likely be a "daft old biddy".
NO! No sir! No! We don't do that. Your grandmother can be as much of a bell-end as you are and don't you ever try to tell her any differently.
Limey I've been meaning to ask you. Not long ago you and MFA were marveling over some arbitrary list created by some groups that attempts to put a "score" on the freedoms of various countries around the world.
I couldn't help but notice that Ukraine and Russia were in the same category.
Why do you think Olga and Vlad in Eastern Ukraine's lives will be any different whether they're a part of Russia or Ukraine? Enough of a difference that it's worth breaking the world and making the lives of everyone who lives in that world worse?
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Post by johnnybgood on Oct 18, 2022 11:37:48 GMT
Don't join NATO is the only one he should get. Russia can't be trusted again. Need weapons to protect.
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Post by limey² on Oct 18, 2022 11:52:25 GMT
"Bell-end" is a gendered insult. Someone of the grandmotherly persuasion would likely be a "daft old biddy".
NO! No sir! No! We don't do that. Your grandmother can be as much of a bell-end as you are and don't you ever try to tell her any differently.
Limey I've been meaning to ask you. Not long ago you and MFA were marveling over some arbitrary list created by some groups that attempts to put a "score" on the freedoms of various countries around the world.
I couldn't help but notice that Ukraine and Russia were in the same category.
Why do you think Olga and Vlad in Eastern Ukraine's lives will be any different whether they're a part of Russia or Ukraine? Enough of a difference that it's worth breaking the world and making the lives of everyone who lives in that world worse?
Ukraine was, pre-2014 and likely more so post-2022, heading towards Western European style social democracy. Quite a journey, but they are on it. Russia, post 1991, is regressing to some kind of mediævalist feudalism. Which it is trying to export. There really is, and has been for a very very long time, an ideological and physical struggle between autocracy and mass participation in government & justice. The visible-from-space flaws in democracy don't justify a shrug of the shoulders when a clear cut manifestation of this struggle occurs. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 12:13:54 GMT
NO! No sir! No! We don't do that. Your grandmother can be as much of a bell-end as you are and don't you ever try to tell her any differently.
Limey I've been meaning to ask you. Not long ago you and MFA were marveling over some arbitrary list created by some groups that attempts to put a "score" on the freedoms of various countries around the world.
I couldn't help but notice that Ukraine and Russia were in the same category.
Why do you think Olga and Vlad in Eastern Ukraine's lives will be any different whether they're a part of Russia or Ukraine? Enough of a difference that it's worth breaking the world and making the lives of everyone who lives in that world worse?
Ukraine was, pre-2014 and likely more so post-2022, heading towards Western European style social democracy. Quite a journey, but they are on it. Russia, post 1991, is regressing to some kind of mediævalist feudalism. Which it is trying to export. There really is, and has been for a very very long time, an ideological and physical struggle between autocracy and mass participation in government & justice. The visible-from-space flaws in democracy don't justify a shrug of the shoulders when a clear cut manifestation of this struggle occurs.
Using the metrics you're using, it could be argued that ALL nations are "heading towards Western European style social democracy." Some of them have more journey ahead of them than others, but they are all on it!
Does this justify destroying the lives of most of the world, especially the poorer countries in the South, and unraveling 40 years of progress on that front across the entire world simply because of diplomatic errors on the part of the West towards Russia and an unwillingness on the part of arrogant elites on all sides being willing to admit they fucked up?
I'm still not seeing a positive outcome in the Russia/Ukraine fiasco that makes any of this worth it. Not without Western nations entering the fray and sending our kids over to die for Ukraine's first steps towards the West. (first steps that never seem to lead to second steps.) But I don't give a shit if Ukraine is a member of the West or another backwards country relying on the energy of yesterday on the other side of the world. So if that happens I won't just be participating in riots and "sieges at the capitol" I'll be leading them when they try to send my boy to die for Ukraine's elites rights to exploit fossil fuel deposits. Because that is the material difference for the world between Russia not being in Ukraine and Russia being in Ukraine. Who gets the contracts for Ukraine's new fossil fuel deposits.
I was born during Viet Nam. I still remember seeing reports about it on TV. I've been hearing about the Middle East causing problems since I was a kid pouring sugar on my Cheerios watching my older sister stick a needle in her leg with the TV in the kitchen turned to news about the Iran hostage crisis. Iraq. Afghanistan. Libya. Egypt. Syria. And let's not forget the grand project with China our leadership had in mind. All with the goal of leading them on their "first steps" towards democracy. According to the people in charge telling us all about how great they are at this.
Remember that limey? Remember that big long list of countries that were "heading towards democracy" that we've gone through over the years and have you noticed how nearly none of them have gone that way and some have gone the other way? None of this has come to pass.
Why should we trust that this is Ukraine's path beyond the rhetoric of our self aggrandizing Western elites telling us how smart they are? Why should we trust that THIS time they're right and Ukraine is worth all of this?
This is the kicker limey. Our elites don't think they have to sell us on this. We're a democracy, and yet our elites do not feel they are under any obligation to explain to us why this time it will be different.
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Post by limey² on Oct 18, 2022 12:19:51 GMT
Ukraine was, pre-2014 and likely more so post-2022, heading towards Western European style social democracy. Quite a journey, but they are on it. Russia, post 1991, is regressing to some kind of mediævalist feudalism. Which it is trying to export. There really is, and has been for a very very long time, an ideological and physical struggle between autocracy and mass participation in government & justice. The visible-from-space flaws in democracy don't justify a shrug of the shoulders when a clear cut manifestation of this struggle occurs.
Using the metrics you're using, it could be argued that ALL nations are "heading towards Western European style social democracy." Some of them have more journey ahead of them than others, but they are all on it!
Does this justify destroying the lives of most of the world, especially the poorer countries in the South, and unraveling 40 years of progress on that front across the entire world simply because of diplomatic errors on the part of the West towards Russia and an unwillingness on the part of arrogant elites on all sides being willing to admit they fucked up?
I'm still not seeing a positive outcome in the Russia/Ukraine fiasco that makes any of this worth it. Not without Western nations entering the fray and sending our kids over to die for Ukraine's first steps towards the West. (first steps that never seem to lead to second steps.) But I don't give a shit if Ukraine is a member of the West or another backwards country relying on the energy of yesterday on the other side of the world. So if that happens I won't just be participating in riots and "sieges at the capitol" I'll be leading them when they try to send my boy to die for Ukraine's elites rights to exploit fossil fuel deposits. Because that is the material difference for the world between Russia not being in Ukraine and Russia being in Ukraine. Who gets the contracts for Ukraine's new fossil fuel deposits.
I was born during Viet Nam. I still remember seeing reports about it on TV. I've been hearing about the Middle East causing problems since I was a kid pouring sugar on my Cheerios watching my older sister stick a needle in her leg with the TV in the kitchen turned to news about the Iran hostage crisis. Iraq. Afghanistan. Libya. Egypt. Syria. And let's not forget the grand project with China our leadership had in mind. All with the goal of leading them on their "first steps" towards democracy. According to the people in charge telling us all about how great they are at this.
Remember that limey? Remember that big long list of countries that were "heading towards democracy" that we've gone through over the years and have you noticed how nearly none of them have gone that way and some have gone the other way? None of this has come to pass.
Why should we trust that this is Ukraine's path beyond the rhetoric of our self aggrandizing Western elites telling us how smart they are? Why should we trust that THIS time they're right and Ukraine is worth all of this?
This is the kicker limey. Our elites don't think they have to sell us on this. We're a democracy, and yet our elites do not feel they are under any obligation to explain to us why this time it will be different.
Slovakia. Czechia. Poland. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Romania. Bulgaria. Hungary. Croatia. Ukraine. All of these resoundingly rejected Russian-style autocracy and want to be Belgium. Yes it is worth taking some pain for progress on this. Did you visit Eastern Europe pre-91? Have you been since? It's just better. We're lurching in the right direction. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 12:27:35 GMT
Using the metrics you're using, it could be argued that ALL nations are "heading towards Western European style social democracy." Some of them have more journey ahead of them than others, but they are all on it!
Does this justify destroying the lives of most of the world, especially the poorer countries in the South, and unraveling 40 years of progress on that front across the entire world simply because of diplomatic errors on the part of the West towards Russia and an unwillingness on the part of arrogant elites on all sides being willing to admit they fucked up?
I'm still not seeing a positive outcome in the Russia/Ukraine fiasco that makes any of this worth it. Not without Western nations entering the fray and sending our kids over to die for Ukraine's first steps towards the West. (first steps that never seem to lead to second steps.) But I don't give a shit if Ukraine is a member of the West or another backwards country relying on the energy of yesterday on the other side of the world. So if that happens I won't just be participating in riots and "sieges at the capitol" I'll be leading them when they try to send my boy to die for Ukraine's elites rights to exploit fossil fuel deposits. Because that is the material difference for the world between Russia not being in Ukraine and Russia being in Ukraine. Who gets the contracts for Ukraine's new fossil fuel deposits.
I was born during Viet Nam. I still remember seeing reports about it on TV. I've been hearing about the Middle East causing problems since I was a kid pouring sugar on my Cheerios watching my older sister stick a needle in her leg with the TV in the kitchen turned to news about the Iran hostage crisis. Iraq. Afghanistan. Libya. Egypt. Syria. And let's not forget the grand project with China our leadership had in mind. All with the goal of leading them on their "first steps" towards democracy. According to the people in charge telling us all about how great they are at this.
Remember that limey? Remember that big long list of countries that were "heading towards democracy" that we've gone through over the years and have you noticed how nearly none of them have gone that way and some have gone the other way? None of this has come to pass.
Why should we trust that this is Ukraine's path beyond the rhetoric of our self aggrandizing Western elites telling us how smart they are? Why should we trust that THIS time they're right and Ukraine is worth all of this?
This is the kicker limey. Our elites don't think they have to sell us on this. We're a democracy, and yet our elites do not feel they are under any obligation to explain to us why this time it will be different.
Slovakia. Czechia. Poland. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Romania. Bulgaria. Hungary. Croatia. Ukraine. All of these resoundingly rejected Russian-style autocracy and want to be Belgium. Yes it is worth taking some pain for progress on this. Did you visit Eastern Europe pre-91? Have you been since? It's just better. We're lurching in the right direction.
How much money will you pay me if I spend the 15 minutes necessary finding articles by experts pointing out how "undemocratic" Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia and Ukraine are?
Have you noticed how much better things are in Russia pre 91 to now? How about China? I've had long discussions with MFA debating how much better things are in Uganda pre 91 to today. Cuz of democracy?
When you say "better" are you talking about democracy or quality of life? Because these aren't necessarily the same things. What does "taking the first steps towards Western style social democracy" have to do with it? I'm 100% confident Jack Ma's life is orders of magnitude better than mine for example.
This is the shit our "elites" try to sell us on limey. Correlation != causation.
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petep
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Post by petep on Oct 18, 2022 13:06:16 GMT
The pursuit of freedom is ugly. People with the power don’t want to give it up and the only way to keep power is to keep the populace dependent and locked in from the world and have no ability to fight back.
There is a reason I don’t have qso’s (conversations) on amateur radio with people in North Korea and China.
I have had a conversations with many in Eastern Europe each day. And some in Russia but they are all on state run stations. Same with Cuba. A few, but must be done in the state run station, and only signal exchanges. Cuban citizens are severely restricted from even having shortwave receivers. But that’s how a left place must be run.
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Post by limey² on Oct 18, 2022 13:34:40 GMT
Slovakia. Czechia. Poland. Estonia. Latvia. Lithuania. Romania. Bulgaria. Hungary. Croatia. Ukraine. All of these resoundingly rejected Russian-style autocracy and want to be Belgium. Yes it is worth taking some pain for progress on this. Did you visit Eastern Europe pre-91? Have you been since? It's just better. We're lurching in the right direction.
How much money will you pay me if I spend the 15 minutes necessary finding articles by experts pointing out how "undemocratic" Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia and Ukraine are?
I've already said the flaws in democracy can be seen from space. Possibly as far away as Uranus. The flaws are both intrinsic and specifically local, these latter changing over time. [/div]
Have you noticed how much better things are in Russia pre 91 to now?
[/quote]they moved between two anti-democratic systems. Irrelevant. An industrial revolution will give net gains. Does improved QOL require a police state? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63280519.amp[/div]
This is the shit our "elites" try to sell us on limey. Correlation != causation.
[/quote] I'd be personally OK under many of the current or plausible near-future versions of autocracy for all sortsof reasons. So would you if you kept your mouth shut in public/stayed anonymous online. Would I swop a doubling in my QOL for my freedom to call Tories a bunch of *****s and to go on anti-war protest marches*? No. Would I swop those freedoms, and the freedoms of the desperately poor bottom 20% in my country for a huge raise in their QOL? No. Because I don't have the right to make that choice for them. Like the Russians don't for the Ukrainians, and the CCP don't for the Chinese people. This isn't to say there's a definite duty on thee or me to help out a fellow imperfect democrat, when the wolf is circling. However; doing so is both altruistic and self-serving. *before actually going to said war, wearing my "Non a la guerra" tshirt under my combat jacket |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 14:13:57 GMT
How much money will you pay me if I spend the 15 minutes necessary finding articles by experts pointing out how "undemocratic" Slovakia, Czechia, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia and Ukraine are?
I've already said the flaws in democracy can be seen from space. Possibly as far away as Uranus. The flaws are both intrinsic and specifically local, these latter changing over time. [/div] Have you noticed how much better things are in Russia pre 91 to now?
[/quote]they moved between two anti-democratic systems. Irrelevant. An industrial revolution will give net gains. Does improved QOL require a police state? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63280519.amp[/div] This is the shit our "elites" try to sell us on limey. Correlation != causation.
[/quote] I'd be personally OK under many of the current or plausible near-future versions of autocracy for all sortsof reasons. So would you if you kept your mouth shut in public/stayed anonymous online. Would I swop a doubling in my QOL for my freedom to call Tories a bunch of *****s and to go on anti-war protest marches*? No. Would I swop those freedoms, and the freedoms of the desperately poor bottom 20% in my country for a huge raise in their QOL? No. Because I don't have the right to make that choice for them. Like the Russians don't for the Ukrainians, and the CCP don't for the Chinese people. This isn't to say there's a definite duty on thee or me to help out a fellow imperfect democrat, when the wolf is circling. However; doing so is both altruistic and self-serving. *before actually going to said war, wearing my "Non a la guerra" tshirt under my combat jacket[/quote] "This isn't to say there's a definite duty on thee or me to help out a fellow imperfect democrat, when the wolf is circling. However; doing so is both altruistic and self serving." Is it altruistic? I'm not convinced on this one limey. In fact I think it's the opposite. Your altruism, much like those loudly advocating shutting down Western economies, is very self serving because it is people like you who are being served while the rest of the world's poorer quarters are being sacrificed on the altar of your altruism. When you make an argument that "things are better in Eastern Europe now compared to pre 91" then it is not at all irrelevant to point out that in Russia, China and Uganda "things are better now compared to '91." In fact it's the most topical data point of all if your concern is for things to be "better." And really I guess the problem and difference between us hinges on whether or not the Ukrainian people are better off with a rebellious Eastern Ukraine than they would be with a solidified and unified pro West and pro Democracy Ukraine sans Eastern Ukrainian separatists. It's similar to what is going on in Russia. The Western strategic moves have solidifed and strengthened the autocratic rule of both Russia and China. Tens of thousands of pro Western people are fleeing Russia, diluting the voice of democracy in Russia. Pretty typical "unintended" consequence for the choices made by our mutually mediocre bureaucracies limey. By the same token, the flip side to that coin is the strength of Western democratic advocates in Ukraine is only strengthened by pro Western denizens of Eastern Ukraine fleeing Russia and pro Russian denizens of Eastern Ukraine joining Russia. Ukraine has been engaged in something of a Civil War since 2014 with the pro West forces who seized power in the Western backed coup being supported by the West ... and the pro Russian separatists in the East being backed by Russia. If by some force of magic or divine intervention the West gets Russia to leave the areas they have said they are taking since day one of this invasion (see Six Years to the Day thread for more about Russia's consistent rhetoric and stated ambitions) ... we will simply return Ukraine to a state of Civil War. That's a bit more uncertainty for a "pro Western" government in Ukraine than just letting the separatists go. The only matter unresolved is still those pesky contracts for developing Ukraine's newly discovered oil and natgas deposits ... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 14:24:19 GMT
Bah. I hate when there's a bug in the code for these posts and I'm not wading through our combined butchery to find it. So it'll have to sit as it is. And I'll point out again limey. This is personal for me. My son was just promoted to sergeant in an artillery unit. He already spent a year in Germany doing joint NATO exercises with his unit. He's a prime candidate for being sent to Ukraine if Joe Biden's family gets paid enough by Ukraine's oligarchy to treat our troops as mercenaries. That's not going to happen. We will have a Civil War here in the United States before that will happen. Not the least of reasons being that Kristi Noem is my son's commander in chief and she's part of the antiwar right. She might just keep our National Guard units here in South Dakota to fight the oppression of the federal government trying to send our blood and treasure over seas for the profits of the Western elites.
I've been trying to get that through to you for 8 months. We here in the States do not have the resolve to do this. And I'm skeptical the UK has the resolve either.
As our political parties heave and scramble under our feet looking for constituents, for the first time in my life I'm proud of being from South Dakota as the Republicans evolve into a pro individual liberty anti war party. Turns out I care more about that than about giving Tinder users more time to make bad choices.
I actually volunteered on Stephanie Herseth's behalf in her failed bid for re election losing to Kristi Noem. I spent a decade mocking Thune and Noem as the empty headed "Ken and Barbie" of the American Congress. Now I'm so god damned relieve Ken and Barbie are in ascendance I'll probably volunteer to help Kristi Noem win re election when I'm finally free of family obligations. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2022 14:25:28 GMT
When I say "people like you" I am specifically referring to White Europeans while non white non Europeans suffer. Not bougie people like you. Altho that maybe fits too  |
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demos
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Post by demos on Oct 18, 2022 15:35:43 GMT
Source
In particular, Belgium (diamonds), Greece (oil), and France and others (uranium).
Source
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