MojoJojo
Legend
Posts: 4,077 
Member is Online
|
Post by MojoJojo on Oct 4, 2022 14:22:02 GMT
What do you imagine would bring Putin to the negotiation table? He (not literally, but his people) is already at the negotiating table. They have already agreed, while negotiations are ongoing, to allow the aid and escape passage I described in the text you left out of your quote. What is bringing him to the table is the desire to not be at war, losing money, equipment, lives, etc.; turning the world against Russia; offers of peace in exchange for retreat to Crimea, Donbas, removal of fear of NATO, etc.
Miss you wyatt. Putin wanted it all, tried to take it all, would NOT have settled for just a portion back then, and probably won't get the opportunity now. My my how the turntables... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2022 14:46:37 GMT
He (not literally, but his people) is already at the negotiating table. They have already agreed, while negotiations are ongoing, to allow the aid and escape passage I described in the text you left out of your quote. What is bringing him to the table is the desire to not be at war, losing money, equipment, lives, etc.; turning the world against Russia; offers of peace in exchange for retreat to Crimea, Donbas, removal of fear of NATO, etc.
Miss you wyatt. Putin wanted it all, tried to take it all, would NOT have settled for just a portion back then, and probably won't get the opportunity now. My my how the turntables...
LOL
|
|
MojoJojo
Legend
Posts: 4,077
Member is Online
|
Post by MojoJojo on Oct 4, 2022 14:57:28 GMT
Miss you wyatt. Putin wanted it all, tried to take it all, would NOT have settled for just a portion back then, and probably won't get the opportunity now. My my how the turntables... LOL
Ssssshh! I'm trying to lure Wyatt. As to my point, Ukraine would have given away territory, promised to be a neutral party and Putin still would have invaded, hoping for the whole pie. Had Ukraine conceded, just how bold would that have made Putin? Would he be happy and stop right there? I don't believe so. He's an aging authoritarian and they all seem to follow a similar path, war for glory. SOB has his war now and his country's corruption has neutered his military. Some 1.5 million winter uniforms disappeared just as he's calling up hundreds of thousands to deploy, in the winter! Master strategist who's relying on his people fighting his neighbors and not him. Keeping everyone else out with his nuke threats. He lost. The real question is how do we give him a face saving out that doesn't included illegally annexed territory his military can't even hold? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2022 15:29:49 GMT
Ssssshh! I'm trying to lure Wyatt. As to my point, Ukraine would have given away territory, promised to be a neutral party and Putin still would have invaded, hoping for the whole pie. Had Ukraine conceded, just how bold would that have made Putin? Would he be happy and stop right there? I don't believe so. He's an aging authoritarian and they all seem to follow a similar path, war for glory. SOB has his war now and his country's corruption has neutered his military. Some 1.5 million winter uniforms disappeared just as he's calling up hundreds of thousands to deploy, in the winter! Master strategist who's relying on his people fighting his neighbors and not him. Keeping everyone else out with his nuke threats. He lost. The real question is how do we give him a face saving out that doesn't included illegally annexed territory his military can't even hold? Six Years to the Day.
It ain't over Mojo. This is exactly what guys like Wyatt and me were warning about. The US has helped Ukraine to the point where this is going to go on, and on, and on.
Remember how our own "leaders" were saying things like "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time?" Remember when the Pink Brigade or wtfever was holding mass peace demonstrations? Remember how we are still in Iraq 20 years later in this democracy? And we think it's going to move the needle in an autocracy?
As I've explained time and time again. This is about the oil and natgas deposits Ukraine discovered right before the US led a coup in Ukraine. NATO protestations are the pretext. The "casus belli" if you will.
If Putin is forced to step down, someone worse and more right wing will replace him. The "Putin's war" rhetoric plays well to Western audiences saying "Glory (not victory weirdly) to Ukraine!" on twitter, but that's about it. This is about the existence of the imagined order currently ruling Russia whose entire way of life and system of rule is based on the exploitation of gas and oil.
This is a long haul affair Mojo. And if you read non Western outlets, Russian citizens are figuring out they don't need 87 different cheeses from France to survive. They're discovering they can do just fine with Gollandsky. And Rossiysky. And Kromstromkoy. (Well played Jeffrey Sonnenfeld?)
Whether Europe survives this intact is a bigger question than whether Russia survives this intact.
And I'll be honest. I don't give a shit whether Shell and BP or Gazprom get the contracts to exploit those resources. And I'm never going to.
|
|
MojoJojo
Legend
Posts: 4,077
Member is Online
|
Post by MojoJojo on Oct 4, 2022 15:40:38 GMT
Ssssshh! I'm trying to lure Wyatt. As to my point, Ukraine would have given away territory, promised to be a neutral party and Putin still would have invaded, hoping for the whole pie. Had Ukraine conceded, just how bold would that have made Putin? Would he be happy and stop right there? I don't believe so. He's an aging authoritarian and they all seem to follow a similar path, war for glory. SOB has his war now and his country's corruption has neutered his military. Some 1.5 million winter uniforms disappeared just as he's calling up hundreds of thousands to deploy, in the winter! Master strategist who's relying on his people fighting his neighbors and not him. Keeping everyone else out with his nuke threats. He lost. The real question is how do we give him a face saving out that doesn't included illegally annexed territory his military can't even hold? Six Years to the Day.
It ain't over Mojo. This is exactly what guys like Wyatt and me were warning about. The US has helped Ukraine to the point where this is going to go on, and on, and on.
Remember how our own "leaders" were saying things like "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time?" Remember when the Pink Brigade or wtfever was holding mass peace demonstrations? Remember how we are still in Iraq 20 years later in this democracy? And we think it's going to move the needle in an autocracy?
As I've explained time and time again. This is about the oil and natgas deposits Ukraine discovered right before the US led a coup in Ukraine. NATO protestations are the pretext. The "casus belli" if you will.
If Putin is forced to step down, someone worse and more right wing will replace him. The "Putin's war" rhetoric plays well to Western audiences saying "Glory (not victory weirdly) to Ukraine!" on twitter, but that's about it. This is about the existence of the imagined order currently ruling Russia whose entire way of life and system of rule is based on the exploitation of gas and oil.
This is a long haul affair Mojo. And if you read non Western outlets, Russian citizens are figuring out they don't need 87 different cheeses from France to survive. They're discovering they can do just fine with Gollandsky. And Rossiysky. And Kromstromkoy. (Well played Jeffrey Sonnenfeld?)
Whether Europe survives this intact is a bigger question than whether Russia survives this intact.
And I'll be honest. I don't give a shit whether Shell and BP or Gazprom get the contracts to exploit those resources. And I'm never going to.
The oil & gas reserves get a US coup accusation, how about a Russian invasion accusation? Give Russia the Donbas! give them Luhansk!, Crimea is Russian anyways! Declare neutrality! Submit! It was, and is, a risky path to take but one that has saved their independence so far and exposed Russia for what it is, so corrupted and stolen even their vaunted military can't support itself. His only trump card is his nukes. This is where the real debate is. Do we allow nuclear blackmail, or not? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2022 15:47:39 GMT
Six Years to the Day.
It ain't over Mojo. This is exactly what guys like Wyatt and me were warning about. The US has helped Ukraine to the point where this is going to go on, and on, and on.
Remember how our own "leaders" were saying things like "You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time?" Remember when the Pink Brigade or wtfever was holding mass peace demonstrations? Remember how we are still in Iraq 20 years later in this democracy? And we think it's going to move the needle in an autocracy?
As I've explained time and time again. This is about the oil and natgas deposits Ukraine discovered right before the US led a coup in Ukraine. NATO protestations are the pretext. The "casus belli" if you will.
If Putin is forced to step down, someone worse and more right wing will replace him. The "Putin's war" rhetoric plays well to Western audiences saying "Glory (not victory weirdly) to Ukraine!" on twitter, but that's about it. This is about the existence of the imagined order currently ruling Russia whose entire way of life and system of rule is based on the exploitation of gas and oil.
This is a long haul affair Mojo. And if you read non Western outlets, Russian citizens are figuring out they don't need 87 different cheeses from France to survive. They're discovering they can do just fine with Gollandsky. And Rossiysky. And Kromstromkoy. (Well played Jeffrey Sonnenfeld?)
Whether Europe survives this intact is a bigger question than whether Russia survives this intact.
And I'll be honest. I don't give a shit whether Shell and BP or Gazprom get the contracts to exploit those resources. And I'm never going to.
The oil & gas reserves get a US coup accusation, how about a Russian invasion accusation? Give Russia the Donbas! give them Luhansk!, Crimea is Russian anyways! Declare neutrality! Submit! It was, and is, a risky path to take but one that has saved their independence so far and exposed Russia for what it is, so corrupted and stolen even their vaunted military can't support itself. His only trump card is his nukes. This is where the real debate is. Do we allow nuclear blackmail, or not? I'm sorry but statements of fact aren't anything except statements of fact.
Sure it's working out splendidly. For Europe. Right?
Are you one of those who thinks I'm paying 12 bucks for a 1lb package of oscar meyer sandwich meat and 4 bucks for a dozen eggs because of Putin?
If we had not entered the war, Ukraine would have already been forced to concede those territories. Even if we manage to force Putin out of those territories, the whole world is still worse off from the Biden administration splintering the world as East v West and destroying the liberal world order he claims he's defending.
You want to stop Putin from taking them, YOU go stop him. I'll be voting for candidates who want to stop sending billions to help the Ukrainian oligarchs and Western oil companies at the expense of American and European citizens.
Sorry demos. This thread isn't for this, but it seems an appropriate spot.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,206
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Oct 10, 2022 17:13:20 GMT
Source
Presumably about more aid, specifically missile defense systems.
Presumably not about a NATO strike on Russia.
|
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Oct 10, 2022 17:20:14 GMT
The only real question is what is in our best interest. Ukraine controlled by Russia - precedence that Russia takes what they want - or Ukraine to push back and keep their nation sovereign.
No matter what, that Putin sure is a real ass
|
|
|
|
Post by limey² on Oct 10, 2022 17:51:33 GMT
The oil & gas reserves get a US coup accusation, how about a Russian invasion accusation? Give Russia the Donbas! give them Luhansk!, Crimea is Russian anyways! Declare neutrality! Submit! It was, and is, a risky path to take but one that has saved their independence so far and exposed Russia for what it is, so corrupted and stolen even their vaunted military can't support itself. His only trump card is his nukes. This is where the real debate is. Do we allow nuclear blackmail, or not? I'm sorry but statements of fact aren't anything except statements of fact.
Sure it's working out splendidly. For Europe. Right?
Are you one of those who thinks I'm paying 12 bucks for a 1lb package of oscar meyer sandwich meat and 4 bucks for a dozen eggs because of Putin?
If we had not entered the war, Ukraine would have already been forced to concede those territories. Even if we manage to force Putin out of those territories, the whole world is still worse off from the Biden administration splintering the world as East v West and destroying the liberal world order he claims he's defending.
You want to stop Putin from taking them, YOU go stop him. I'll be voting for candidates who want to stop sending billions to help the Ukrainian oligarchs and Western oil companies at the expense of American and European citizens.
Sorry demos. This thread isn't for this, but it seems an appropriate spot.
How do you manage to construct for yourself a world in which you can advocate for allowing people to have their homes annexed by a hostile, criminal, anti-democratic regime, whilst claiming to be a liberal? |
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Oct 10, 2022 17:55:01 GMT
I'm sorry but statements of fact aren't anything except statements of fact.
Sure it's working out splendidly. For Europe. Right?
Are you one of those who thinks I'm paying 12 bucks for a 1lb package of oscar meyer sandwich meat and 4 bucks for a dozen eggs because of Putin?
If we had not entered the war, Ukraine would have already been forced to concede those territories. Even if we manage to force Putin out of those territories, the whole world is still worse off from the Biden administration splintering the world as East v West and destroying the liberal world order he claims he's defending.
You want to stop Putin from taking them, YOU go stop him. I'll be voting for candidates who want to stop sending billions to help the Ukrainian oligarchs and Western oil companies at the expense of American and European citizens.
Sorry demos. This thread isn't for this, but it seems an appropriate spot.
How do you manage to construct for yourself a world in which you can advocate for allowing people to have their homes annexed by a hostile, criminal, anti-democratic regime, whilst claiming to be a liberal? This is where I break from some libertarians. Yes, I believe in don’t tread on me and I won’t tread on you. But one must also accept there are some real jerks out there. The only way you can continue to be a libertarian is if you punch back when punched. Otherwise you will soon be a slave. |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,206
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Oct 10, 2022 18:14:54 GMT
This is where I break from some libertarians. Yes, I believe in don’t tread on me and I won’t tread on you. But one must also accept there are some real jerks out there. The only way you can continue to be a libertarian is if you punch back when punched. Otherwise you will soon be a slave. And we're not being punched. Many (most?) libertarians are non-interventionists when it comes to foreign policy, so their position is entirely consistent.
|
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Oct 10, 2022 18:17:26 GMT
This is where I break from some libertarians. Yes, I believe in don’t tread on me and I won’t tread on you. But one must also accept there are some real jerks out there. The only way you can continue to be a libertarian is if you punch back when punched. Otherwise you will soon be a slave. And we're not being punched. Many (most?) libertarians are non-interventionists when it comes to foreign policy, so their position is entirely consistent.
I understand. That’s why many in cities draw their blinds when a rape is happening out on the sidewalk. Just don’t get involved. |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,206
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Oct 10, 2022 18:21:30 GMT
I understand. That’s why many in cities draw their blinds when a rape is happening out on the sidewalk. Just don’t get involved. I don't think you do. |
|
|
|
Post by Lomelis on Oct 11, 2022 6:45:03 GMT
It might be time for NATO ( aka the US ) to actually work towards peace. Put NATO expansion on the negotiating table and see what happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by limey² on Oct 11, 2022 10:29:14 GMT
This is where I break from some libertarians. Yes, I believe in don’t tread on me and I won’t tread on you. But one must also accept there are some real jerks out there. The only way you can continue to be a libertarian is if you punch back when punched. Otherwise you will soon be a slave. And we're not being punched. Many (most?) libertarians are non-interventionists when it comes to foreign policy, so their position is entirely consistent.
....which assists the plausible argument that libertarianism is essentially amoral. And boneheaded. |
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Oct 11, 2022 15:45:11 GMT
And we're not being punched. Many (most?) libertarians are non-interventionists when it comes to foreign policy, so their position is entirely consistent.
....which assists the plausible argument that libertarianism is essentially amoral. And boneheaded. To state one is non intervention implies what happens in one country or to one country has no impact on us now or in the future. Does anyone really believe russias unilateral brutal attack on Ukraine has no impact on us now or in the future. Really? |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,206
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Oct 11, 2022 15:58:49 GMT
Does anyone really believe russias unilateral brutal attack on Ukraine has no impact on us now or in the future. Really? In terms of supporting Ukraine, I think the more important question is about our interests, our abilities, and the intersection of those.
The impact - on us - of Russia invading Ukraine could be quite minimal vis a vis our interests. That's the question and debate.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,461
|
Post by thor on Oct 11, 2022 16:07:19 GMT
It might be time for NATO ( aka the US ) to actually work towards peace. Put NATO expansion on the negotiating table and see what happens. ^^^ Translation: "I am a vagina whose shitcan ideology of 'mUH fReeDumB' was ALWAYS bullshit and has been exposed for the excrement that it is." Be honest, Shitbag - just declare that you believe a free people should roll over and surrender so that you can feel 'safe'. Pathetic. |
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Oct 11, 2022 16:47:24 GMT
Does anyone really believe russias unilateral brutal attack on Ukraine has no impact on us now or in the future. Really? In terms of supporting Ukraine, I think the more important question is about our interests, our abilities, and the intersection of those.
The impact - on us - of Russia invading Ukraine could be quite minimal vis a vis our interests. That's the question and debate.
That’s fair. If the us the Ukraine and Russia were the only countries on the planet. Ie. After prop 47 passed in California, and the first store was robbed and everyone saw there was no punishment or chase to catch the guy. Do you sense that others watched and decided why not go rob a store. Much of the planet is watching to see what happens when an authoritarian thug like Putin’s decides to take whatever he wants, what happens. To think this is only about the us and Russia and Ukraine is incredibly naive. Certainly too naive for you. |
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,206
Member is Online
|
Post by demos on Oct 11, 2022 17:55:56 GMT
That’s fair. If the us the Ukraine and Russia were the only countries on the planet. Ie. After prop 47 passed in California, and the first store was robbed and everyone saw there was no punishment or chase to catch the guy. Do you sense that others watched and decided why not go rob a store. Much of the planet is watching to see what happens when an authoritarian thug like Putin’s decides to take whatever he wants, what happens. To think this is only about the us and Russia and Ukraine is incredibly naive. Certainly too naive for you. What happens in other countries doesn't necessarily have significant impact on our interests.
Why aren't we wading into the Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict? Conflict in Ethiopia (that has impacted Sudan and other neighboring states)?
But we are involved in the Yemeni Civil War which doesn't really concern us but as a favor to our good friends in Saudi Arabia (and we see what wonders that has done for our relationship).
And we're plenty friendly with authoritarian regimes when it suits our interests and don't really do anything about authoritarian regimes if their actions aren't perceived as significantly impacting us (genocide in Myanmar anyone?).
Naive is thinking that the world is black and white, which you're doing. A lot of those other countries sitting around watching this conflict a) don't care, b) support Russia, or c) support Ukraine with varying degrees of warmth. You've had a mixture of all three within NATO and the EU itself since the conflict began.
|
|
