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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 16:48:52 GMT
So you are saying that your default attitude towards anyone you meet is disrespect, because how in just meeting someone, can they have earned your respect? You don't sound like a Christian at all. What value system do you follow?
Freon
What part of "good people attempt to give others the benefit of the doubt" confused you? I show respect in the form of courtesy to anyone that I meet, but to develop any esteem for that individual, it must be based on experience, a mutual deference and a judgement of character. Courtesy is required (at least among normal people) but respect must be earned. As far as disrespect as a default attitude, did you ever express a strong disdain for some Christians on the old LNF? Perhaps you need to work on your own house before judging others.
I do not, and have not, expressed any disdain for anyone in this forum purely for their religion. I honestly could care less what your religion is. Now, if you try to ram it down my throat, which many of you do by forcing the rest of us to celebrate your holidays, or not respecting ours, then yes, you lose my respect. But the majority of my friends are Christian, and I still enjoy the Christmas traditions, especially all the old Burl Ives songs. I have zero desire to only surround myself with those who look, act, or believe what I do. I find the concept anathema. But I strongly get the impression that you think this is YOUR country. That this is a Christian country. It's not. You just happen to be the majority at this time. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 16:58:47 GMT
So you are saying that your default attitude towards anyone you meet is disrespect, because how in just meeting someone, can they have earned your respect?
You don't sound like a Christian at all. What value system do you follow?
Freon
What part of "good people attempt to give others the benefit of the doubt" confused you? I show respect in the form of courtesy to anyone that I meet, but to develop any esteem for that individual, it must be based on experience, a mutual deference and a judgement of character. Courtesy is required (at least among normal people) but respect must be earned.
As far as disrespect as a default attitude, did you ever express a strong disdain for some Christians on the old LNF? Perhaps you need to work on your own house before judging others.
The benefit of the doubt about what? That they think the way you do?
Freon
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petep
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Post by petep on Aug 11, 2020 17:19:13 GMT
The radical left loves to preach freedom, as long as you do everything their way.
The rest of us simply want to be left alone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2020 17:27:23 GMT
What part of "good people attempt to give others the benefit of the doubt" confused you? I show respect in the form of courtesy to anyone that I meet, but to develop any esteem for that individual, it must be based on experience, a mutual deference and a judgement of character. Courtesy is required (at least among normal people) but respect must be earned. As far as disrespect as a default attitude, did you ever express a strong disdain for some Christians on the old LNF? Perhaps you need to work on your own house before judging others.
I do not, and have not, expressed any disdain for anyone in this forum purely for their religion. I honestly could care less what your religion is. Now, if you try to ram it down my throat, which many of you do by forcing the rest of us to celebrate your holidays, or not respecting ours, then yes, you lose my respect. But the majority of my friends are Christian, and I still enjoy the Christmas traditions, especially all the old Burl Ives songs. I have zero desire to only surround myself with those who look, act, or believe what I do. I find the concept anathema. But I strongly get the impression that you think this is YOUR country. That this is a Christian country. It's not. You just happen to be the majority at this time. Freon Are you saying that you never trashed, ridiculed and belittled evangelical Christians on the old LNF, Solar's LNF or this one? Or was the operative word "purely"?
And if you could "care less" what my religion is, why did you bring up my faith by saying that what I said "doesn't sound very Christian". How would you react if I opined that something that you said was not very Jewish?
This country founded on a Judeo-Christian tradition. Its best values and ideals originated in that tradition, but also in the idea that the state should not dictate to or interfere with one's personal faith. That WAS my country, until the liberals perverted it beyond recognition. At this time, we're arguing over a corpse.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 17:30:58 GMT
The radical left loves to preach freedom, as long as you do everything their way. The rest of us simply want to be left alone. We want women to have the ability to be left alone to have an abortion.
Why won't you leave them alone?
And we want those who express their sexuality different from you to be left alone.
Why won't you leave them alone?
You conservatives want to tell me what religion I should be, what color I should be, and what my sexuality is.
WHY WON'T YOU JUST LEAVE US ALONE.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 17:35:42 GMT
I do not, and have not, expressed any disdain for anyone in this forum purely for their religion. I honestly could care less what your religion is. Now, if you try to ram it down my throat, which many of you do by forcing the rest of us to celebrate your holidays, or not respecting ours, then yes, you lose my respect. But the majority of my friends are Christian, and I still enjoy the Christmas traditions, especially all the old Burl Ives songs. I have zero desire to only surround myself with those who look, act, or believe what I do. I find the concept anathema. But I strongly get the impression that you think this is YOUR country. That this is a Christian country. It's not. You just happen to be the majority at this time. Freon Are you saying that you never trashed, ridiculed and belittled evangelical Christians on the old LNF, Solar's LNF or this one? Or was the operative word "purely"?
And if you could "care less" what my religion is, why did you bring up my faith by saying that what I said "doesn't sound very Christian". How would you react if I opined that something that you said was not very Jewish?
This country founded on a Judeo-Christian tradition. Its best values and ideals originated in that tradition, but also in the idea that the state should not dictate to or interfere with one's personal faith. That WAS my country, until the liberals perverted it beyond recognition. At this time, we're arguing over a corpse.
I stand by my statement. I never ridiculed anyone PURELY for their religion. If they imposed that religion on me, or acted as a hypocrite regarding their own religion, then they are fair game.
If you challenged my Judaism, I would ask you to qualify it.
You say 'Judeo-Christian', but that is only because we Jews fought for our right to be treated as equals, and you had no choice. There STILL is a ton of antisemitism, but because we look like you, you cannot help but treat us equally. The blacks are obviously black. They can't change that (yet, but it's coming).
And we were not founded on Judeo-Christian ethics. The Puritans had zero Judaism about them. What's more, I would argue that this country was founded on greed and exploitation more than anything else.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 17:38:31 GMT
The liberal media has several times referred to Trump's speeches as "dark," with the implication that there is something wrong with being dark. That's racist. In English, "black" and "dark" generally refer to bad things: blackball, blacklist, blackguard. That's all racist Also, some people are afraid of the dark. That's racist. Some fear the dark so much they use nighlights. That's racist too. In fact, one of the main uses of electricity is to provide light so it won't be dark. Electricity is racist. Our pupils get bigger when it's dark to admit more light, as if darkness is a problem. That's racist. Grocery stores often get rid of fruit that has developed dark spots. That's racist. Doctors say that if a mole gets darker, it might be cancer. That's racist. Doctors say its a bad sign if your stool or urine is dark. That's racist. When things get dirty, they often turn brown. Not liking dirty things is racist. People use detergent to get their clothes white. That's racist. Feces is brown, and lots of people don't like feces. That's racist. Yes, words like blacklisting are part of systemic racism.
But dark? That is a description, not a reference.
The difference is obvious, so why can't you see it?
Freon
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2020 18:02:15 GMT
The benefit of the doubt about what? That they think the way you do?
Freon
Not at all, Freon. I assume that the courtesy and respect that I typically display at an initial meeting will be reciprocated. That's a start, but that's all.
Respect doesn't require full agreement, but it does require maturity, honesty, intelligence and common sense from both parties.
Whining like a spoiled brat because someone says a disliked word or phrase will not engender respect (oh my, can I say "engender" without getting cancelled??).
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 18:28:40 GMT
I stand by my statement. I never ridiculed anyone PURELY for their religion. If they imposed that religion on me, or acted as a hypocrite regarding their own religion, then they are fair game.
If you challenged my Judaism, I would ask you to qualify it.
You say 'Judeo-Christian', but that is only because we Jews fought for our right to be treated as equals, and you had no choice. There STILL is a ton of antisemitism, but because we look like you, you cannot help but treat us equally. The blacks are obviously black. They can't change that (yet, but it's coming).
And we were not founded on Judeo-Christian ethics. The Puritans had zero Judaism about them. What's more, I would argue that this country was founded on greed and exploitation more than anything else.
Freon
I read the Old Testament a while ago, and it seemed pretty racist. Does any other racial group or ethnicity have such a racist founding document as the Jews do? I don't see your point. I agree, the book is awful, but Judaism does not follow the Torah like you crazy fundamentalists follow the Bible.
We criticize it, analyze it, debate it, in the Talmud. The commentary, or midrash, is what we follow, not the letter of the testament. In fact, the only type of Jew that we look down on, is one who does NOT challenge the Torah. So I think you picked a bad example.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 18:30:50 GMT
The benefit of the doubt about what? That they think the way you do?
Freon
Not at all, Freon. I assume that the courtesy and respect that I typically display at an initial meeting will be reciprocated. That's a start, but that's all.
Respect doesn't require full agreement, but it does require maturity, honesty, intelligence and common sense from both parties.
Whining like a spoiled brat because someone says a disliked word or phrase will not engender respect (oh my, can I say "engender" without getting cancelled??).
So was I not supposed to challenge the people who used the word 'Jew' as a verb? They were not being racist, that is, they were not trying to demean me, they just grew up with a word in their lexicon that I happen to find offensive.
By your reasoning, I was in the wrong by getting offended. I was being too sensitive. How is it different from 'blacklisting', or 'blackballing'?
Freon
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petep
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Post by petep on Aug 11, 2020 18:41:34 GMT
Freon is the ultimate emotional straw man. No one wants to control you. Look at this thread. You are the one looking to limit rights. Based on what. Is it a hobby? You and Hitler and Stalin and Castro would be great friends.
Is abortion enshrined in the bill of rights?
My wife and I were married by a gay friend. His partner was our photographer. So I guess that blows that straw man out of the water.
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petep
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Post by petep on Aug 11, 2020 18:43:32 GMT
Imagine in your wildest dreams.
White entertainment tv
Best white new artist
And On and on
There is no racism.
It’s simply being used as an excuse by some for failing.
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 11, 2020 18:59:28 GMT
I think it is important to acknowledge racism that's built into our language and culture.
It's obviously a problem, or so many wouldn't be marching in the streets right now.
I realize that the remarks, so far, have been a complaint about political correctness, but there is a difference between racism and PC. To see racism as PC, nullifies what racism is. Maybe that is their goal.
Freon
That's not racism. It's description. If someone identifies with the label of a hard drive, the problem is not necessarily with the label. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 11, 2020 19:01:19 GMT
What I find fascinating is the argument by each of you in here that once you start respecting one group, the world will end because now you have to respect everyone. Sounds horrible. The problem might be the need to respect groups rather than individuals. There is something wrong with deliberately trying to offend people, but striving to not offend people is an unwinnable war. There is no end to potential offence. Literally. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 11, 2020 19:03:44 GMT
The Puritans had zero Judaism about them.
Except for their so-called "Old Testament." |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 19:10:00 GMT
I don't see your point. I agree, the book is awful, but Judaism does not follow the Torah like you crazy fundamentalists follow the Bible.
We criticize it, analyze it, debate it, in the Talmud. The commentary, or midrash, is what we follow, not the letter of the testament. In fact, the only type of Jew that we look down on, is one who does NOT challenge the Torah. So I think you picked a bad example.
Freon
Do they criticize the racist parts? If you read into it, you'll see that it's all about bloodlines. They just go on and on about that. That's pretty racist. Also, I don't recall the particulars, but it seems there was a lot of emphasis on keeping separate from other people, being better than other people, being God's Chosen People, treating Jews and non-Jews differently, taking land from other people because they weren't Jewish, and killing people wholesale because they weren't Jewish. It's pretty brutal stuff, and it's all us vs. them based on racial bloodlines. I couldn't get over how racist it was while I was reading it. It's basically the inspiration for Hitler's Mein Kampf. And regardless of whether Jews criticize the racist parts of the founding document of their race (which I don't know that they do), that is still the founding document. You cannot build a sound structure on a rotten foundation. Simply "criticizing" it is not enough. Judaism needs to be reviled altogether as having an original basis in intense racist hatred. If Jews want to start a new religion, they are free to do that. But basing it on the Torah is not an option, as racism is the warp and woof of that document. And I know that many Jews still think of Israel as in some way "theirs." But that's based on the racist part of the Torah. So we also need to get rid of Israel as a monument to systemic racism. Yes, we criticize the racist parts. The slavery parts. The stoning of children parts. I could go on.
I don't want to get on a tangent here, but Judaism has always adapted to the times. It's partly why we've lasted so long. We don't just criticize the torah, we interpret it, and live by the interpretations. Keeping Kosher is a good example. If I genetically alter a pig so it has no split hoof (the condition that makes it NOT Kosher), is it now Kosher? That is being debated right now.
Hah, 'chosen people'. You obviously don't know what that means. It means that Jews represent all humanity in the eyes of G-d. If we don't follow the rules, then when the messiah comes, EVERYONE is screwed. It's not chosen for special treatment, it's chosen for responsibility.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 19:11:44 GMT
I don't see your point. I agree, the book is awful, but Judaism does not follow the Torah like you crazy fundamentalists follow the Bible.
We criticize it, analyze it, debate it, in the Talmud. The commentary, or midrash, is what we follow, not the letter of the testament. In fact, the only type of Jew that we look down on, is one who does NOT challenge the Torah. So I think you picked a bad example.
Freon
Do they criticize the racist parts? If you read into it, you'll see that it's all about bloodlines. They just go on and on about that. That's pretty racist. Also, I don't recall the particulars, but it seems there was a lot of emphasis on keeping separate from other people, being better than other people, being God's Chosen People, treating Jews and non-Jews differently, taking land from other people because they weren't Jewish, and killing people wholesale because they weren't Jewish. It's pretty brutal stuff, and it's all us vs. them based on racial bloodlines. I couldn't get over how racist it was while I was reading it. It's basically the inspiration for Hitler's Mein Kampf. And regardless of whether Jews criticize the racist parts of the founding document of their race (which I don't know that they do), that is still the founding document. You cannot build a sound structure on a rotten foundation. Simply "criticizing" it is not enough. Judaism needs to be reviled altogether as having an original basis in intense racist hatred. If Jews want to start a new religion, they are free to do that. But basing it on the Torah is not an option, as racism is the warp and woof of that document. And I know that many Jews still think of Israel as in some way "theirs." But that's based on the racist part of the Torah. So we also need to get rid of Israel as a monument to systemic racism. Just saw that last line. Totally not true. I do not consider Israel to be ours by right. In fact, at least half of Jews do not. We are not a monolith.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 19:16:03 GMT
Freon is the ultimate emotional straw man. No one wants to control you. Look at this thread. You are the one looking to limit rights. Based on what. Is it a hobby? You and Hitler and Stalin and Castro would be great friends. Is abortion enshrined in the bill of rights? My wife and I were married by a gay friend. His partner was our photographer. So I guess that blows that straw man out of the water. Ahh, the classic, I have a friend who is gay, so I am a friend to all gays. I have a friend who is black, so I am a friend to all blacks.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Aug 11, 2020 19:19:51 GMT
I think it is important to acknowledge racism that's built into our language and culture.
It's obviously a problem, or so many wouldn't be marching in the streets right now.
I realize that the remarks, so far, have been a complaint about political correctness, but there is a difference between racism and PC. To see racism as PC, nullifies what racism is. Maybe that is their goal.
Freon
That's not racism. It's description. If someone identifies with the label of a hard drive, the problem is not necessarily with the label. And yet I said our black team members do find it offensive. It is a reminder to them that slavery is still embedded in even something as benign as a relationship between a device, and the one it controls. It says that slavery, and the language of slavery, is acceptable and harmless.
But that's the rub. It is NOT harmless. It DOES hurt people. I choose not to hurt others. It's why I wear a mask for COVID, and why I am happy to modify the use of a term. Such an easy change, yet you treat it like I'm asking you to cut off a limb. I can't believe what big babies you all are.
Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 11, 2020 19:52:23 GMT
But that's the rub. It is NOT harmless. It DOES hurt people. I choose not to hurt others. So the solution is to change the label? The symptom? Or the root? One root problem is categorizing people into groups and treating individuals within that group as if their primary characteristics are the group generalizations. For example, " I can't believe what big babies you all are." Why do you presume that my opinions are "the same as everyone else" simply because I have addressed the issue you brought up? Why is it that addressing the issue means forcing me into some kind of generalized stereotype? Isn't that at the root of racism? I'm offended by your stereotype of me. Do you care about my offence? |
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