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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 3:39:18 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
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AmericanMom
Participant
America loses when Leftist win
Posts: 135
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Post by AmericanMom on Jul 29, 2020 5:06:09 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
Its the principal.. Nothing is truly valued if it is given. Work for what you have and have what you have worked for.
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RWB
Legend
Posts: 12,819
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Post by RWB on Jul 29, 2020 5:23:00 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
Reparations for blacks? Yes but only to anyone still alive that was a slave. Universal healthcare ok.
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 29, 2020 7:47:40 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
If money is not an object, no impact on me, the country, or anybody then what you are suggesting is that ultimately in this case money holds no value. It's worthless. It would therefore not be an effective tool to be used for exchange. If money or currency no longer has value then we have to consider other means of exchange. We can revert back to a barter system or place value on a different type of exchange but then those ideas run counter to the thought experiment, they run counter to the idea of unlimited resources. This means the system would have to be either a voluntary communal/communistic system or a forced communal system. Personally I have no problem with a charitable system where people voluntarily give whatever to whoever. I would not support the other.
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Post by crepe05 on Jul 29, 2020 11:14:00 GMT
No, to reparations. It's been 155 years since the Civil War ended. Not all blacks who live in the U. S. are ancestors of slaves in the U.S. Their first ancestors who came to the States came after the Civil War. Not all whites are descendants of any slave owners, either.
No to Universal Health Care, either. I'm not going to forget about the money angle because that's a big part of how I have to make a lot of the decisions in my life; big and small. I see nothing positive regarding Universal Health Care in my life.
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 13:10:23 GMT
So to be clear, it sounds like you all agree that being set free was enough, that no additional compensation was due, and that since that time, no systemic difference exists between the way they are treated (economically) and the way anyone else is.
Am I hearing you correctly?
Freon
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Post by crepe05 on Jul 29, 2020 13:26:56 GMT
Not completely. There is a difference in the way that various groups are treated, socially and economically. That's humankind in action. Put little kids in a room together, no adults, and they will form their own groups with their own hierarchy. My words, even dogs do the same thing. Someone leads, others follow. You are correct that being set free (155 yrs ago, or thereabout) was long enough ago that no compensation is called for.
At least that's how I read it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 13:32:14 GMT
So to be clear, it sounds like you all agree that being set free was enough, that no additional compensation was due, and that since that time, no systemic difference exists between the way they are treated (economically) and the way anyone else is. Am I hearing you correctly? Freon That is a nice spin but not what I gleaned from the replies. But let's do it your way since you like supposition. What you seem to support is handing out money based on skin color. There is no easy way to identify the descendants of slaves. Even if there was it would a cumbersome task requiring a huge bureaucracy. Likewise you would need to exempt whites whose ancestors were not slave owners or not in the country at the time. Another huge bureaucracy. In fact, I have seen debates on other sites claiming there is no such creature as a white person. That's another dimension to deal with. What about blacks from places like Jamaica, Turks the Bahamas and Barbados who may have no connection to slavery and came here decades later. Do you exempt them or toss them in based only on skin color? Now as you requested money was the not the issue for saying no to reparations. Make your case for supporting it, if you do.
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 13:37:10 GMT
So to be clear, it sounds like you all agree that being set free was enough, that no additional compensation was due, and that since that time, no systemic difference exists between the way they are treated (economically) and the way anyone else is. Am I hearing you correctly? Freon That is a nice spin but not what I gleaned from the replies. But let's do it your way since you like supposition. What you seem to support is handing out money based on skin color. There is no easy way to identify the descendants of slaves. Even if there was it would a cumbersome task requiring a huge bureaucracy. Likewise you would need to exempt whites whose ancestors were not slave owners or not in the country at the time. Another huge bureaucracy. In fact, I have seen debates on other sites claiming there is no such creature as a white person. There's another dimension to deal with. Waht about blacks from places like Jamaica who may have no connection to slavery. Do you exempt them or toss them in based only on skin color? Now as you requested money was the not the issue for saying no to reparations. Make your case for supporting it, if you do.
Where do you see spin?
All those who replied, said that based on principle alone, they would not give the descendants of freed slaves a penny. So my comment was to clarify what that principle was. No spin.
If I am misunderstanding, please correct me. Freon
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 13:40:12 GMT
That is a nice spin but not what I gleaned from the replies. But let's do it your way since you like supposition. What you seem to support is handing out money based on skin color. There is no easy way to identify the descendants of slaves. Even if there was it would a cumbersome task requiring a huge bureaucracy. Likewise you would need to exempt whites whose ancestors were not slave owners or not in the country at the time. Another huge bureaucracy. In fact, I have seen debates on other sites claiming there is no such creature as a white person. There's another dimension to deal with. Waht about blacks from places like Jamaica who may have no connection to slavery. Do you exempt them or toss them in based only on skin color? Now as you requested money was the not the issue for saying no to reparations. Make your case for supporting it, if you do.
Where do you see spin?
All those who replied, said that based on principle alone, they would not give the descendants of freed slaves a penny. So my comment was to clarify what that principle was. No spin.
If I am misunderstanding, please correct me. Freon
Fair enough. What is your position on it and why?
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,115
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 29, 2020 13:55:01 GMT
Not completely. There is a difference in the way that various groups are treated, socially and economically. That's humankind in action. Put little kids in a room together, no adults, and they will form their own groups with their own hierarchy. My words, even dogs do the same thing. Someone leads, others follow. You are correct that being set free (155 yrs ago, or thereabout) was long enough ago that no compensation is called for. At least that's how I read it.
So Creepy comes out in favor of a Lord of the Flies type of society... where immature children rule... people with no more smarts or social structure than dogs and babies...
There's more than enough reasons in Creepy's post to justify kicking her Tantrump President out of office and put in a real adult.
Sad.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 14:00:32 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
The problem is, once you pretend that money is no object, and that it has no impact "on you or the country," the question becomes nonsensical. If it has no impact, then it has no impact. If there is no cost to anybody when you collect it, then there is no benefit to anyone when you give it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 14:08:34 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
The problem is, once you pretend that money is no object, and that it has no impact "on you or the country," the question becomes nonsensical. If it has no impact, then it has no impact. If there is no cost to anybody when you collect it, then there is no benefit to anyone when you give it. You make an excellent point. I suspect the real intent was to get "conservatives" on record as being against it and then steer the conversation in a direction that usually results with the inevitable attacks on them for saying they were against it. I based that on two sentences. Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks? I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 14:15:45 GMT
The problem is, once you pretend that money is no object, and that it has no impact "on you or the country," the question becomes nonsensical. If it has no impact, then it has no impact. If there is no cost to anybody when you collect it, then there is no benefit to anyone when you give it. You make an excellent point. I suspect the real intent was to get "conservatives" on record as being against it and then steer the conversation in a direction that usually results with the inevitable attacks on them for saying they were against it. I based that on two sentences. Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks? I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle. Perhaps. The truth is, if money is no object and has no impact on me or the country, then the answer is that I don't care what you do with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 14:23:28 GMT
I am curious if the intent was anything else than what I stated and quoted. Why would the OP not present it as a general question to all? Hopefully he or she can add that eplanation to the previously asked questions as to whether he or she favored reparations, and why.
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 29, 2020 14:40:47 GMT
So to be clear, it sounds like you all agree that being set free was enough, that no additional compensation was due, and that since that time, no systemic difference exists between the way they are treated (economically) and the way anyone else is. Am I hearing you correctly? Freon
Yes.. 'set free' and then endured more than a century of government sanctioned obstacles ..
You are asking people who truly believe that everything they have they created without the benefit of others in a society. Of course you're gonna get that sort of answer..
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 14:42:35 GMT
I am curious if the intent was anything else than what I stated and quoted. Why would the OP not present it as a general question to all? Hopefully he or she can add that eplanation to the previously asked questions as to whether he or she favored reparations, and why. I have made it clear that my purpose for being in this forum is to understand you conservatives.
You make zero sense to me.
Systemic racism against blacks is obvious and prolific to me. Blacks getting a fair start after being freed through a financial compensation would have, at a minimum, given them no claim to being treated unfairly, and likely would have made their integration into society much easier, much faster. And they DESERVED that compensation. There is no excuse, especially in America, for denying an entire people the freedom promised in the constitution. It is literally the most egregious offense possible to us.
I find the argument that since descendants of blacks were not slaves themselves, that they do not deserve what their ancestors were denied, to be a denial of a massive sleight we never fully owned and dealt with. Freon
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,115
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 29, 2020 14:56:14 GMT
You make an excellent point. I suspect the real intent was to get "conservatives" on record as being against it and then steer the conversation in a direction that usually results with the inevitable attacks on them for saying they were against it. I based that on two sentences. Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks? I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle. Perhaps. The truth is, if money is no object and has no impact on me or the country, then the answer is that I don't care what you do with it.
I think you misunderstood the OP.
It didn't say the proposed effects of the proposals would have no effect on you or the nation. It said (as I understand it), that they would have no MONETARY effect on you or the nation.
If you're not black, yeah, nah, the reparations would have no direct non-monetary effect on you. But I feel it would have a net positive effect on the nation in terms of race relations.
And most certainly single payer health care would effect just about everyone and the nation. I don't see how that couldn't be more true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 15:00:17 GMT
I am curious if the intent was anything else than what I stated and quoted. Why would the OP not present it as a general question to all? Hopefully he or she can add that eplanation to the previously asked questions as to whether he or she favored reparations, and why. I have made it clear that my purpose for being in this forum is to understand you conservatives.
You make zero sense to me.
Systemic racism against blacks is obvious and prolific to me. Blacks getting a fair start after being freed through a financial compensation would have, at a minimum, given them no claim to being treated unfairly, and likely would have made their integration into society much easier, much faster. And they DESERVED that compensation. There is no excuse, especially in America, for denying an entire people the freedom promised in the constitution. It is literally the most egregious offense possible to us.
I find the argument that since descendants of blacks were not slaves themselves, that they do not deserve what their ancestors were denied, to be a denial of a massive sleight we never fully owned and dealt with. Freon
You don't understand because you don't wish to. What I posted was very clear. I gave you reasons as to why reparations would be almost impossible to determine and distribute. You avoided that and instead harangued about slavery being unfair and slaves being denied constitutional rights. I didn't see anyone say that it was fair or justified. Simply saying that you feel they deserve cash doesn't mean it is should happen. Again, how will you determine who gets it? How much? Who are the descendants? What proof will they need? Do people whose families never owned slaves pay for it? Is skin color enough proof? All perfectly legit questions if one where to proceed with reparations. To you they are ridiculous questions because you have no well thought out idea on how to do it, just to do it. Could that be why "conservatives" don't generally agree to reparations. As to understanding conservatives, do you know any that say slavery was a justifable thing? You may find out what you already know which is that many oppose the reparations for some of the very reasons that I gave you and you have chosen to ignore. While at the same time they deplore slavery. You position boils down to throw money at the issue and it will solve everything. Seems we have all heard that before.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,591
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Post by bama beau on Jul 29, 2020 15:02:48 GMT
So let's pretend that money is not an object. No impact on you or the country.
Would you conservatives pay for reparations to Blacks?
Would you go for universal healthcare? Feel free to add items to this list.
I'm just curious if it is the money that bothers you, or the principle.
Freon
Its the principal.. Nothing is truly valued if it is given. Work for what you have and have what you have worked for. I don't value that opinion.
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