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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 22:14:00 GMT
Fine. The answer is still no for the same reasons. Why? If I say yes, which is a position that I can be convinced to be empathetic to, then I will have to attach the same caveats which is why Maestro likley told you that your question is flawed. Convince me that real descedants of slaves will be the only ones to get it and how you will control fraud and people being given them based solely on skin color. Hence my bureaucracy concern. Likewise the only ones who should pay the reparations are the descendants of slave owners. That is only fair to people whose descendants did not come here until the late 19th or early 20th cenuiry let alone anyone one who came here even more recently. That is a position that should be shared by everyone not only conservatives. Which still leads me to why you are only asking conservatives unless you are implying that non-conservatives are willing to just throw money at the issue. Something I pointed out to you earlier. Between myself and Maestro I hope you are getting why the question is inherently flawed and why I find it biased since you only want to hear from conservatives. It comes across as agenda driven and made on the assumption that conservatives automatically will say no; which I just proved to be fallicious. Now if you want to drill down only on the word deserve then the answer is still no. The slaves deserved it but their descenadants especially modern day ones have the ability to earn not be given a handout. Again as token payment in acknowledment it was wrong might be worthy if done properly. Tossing money to descenadants genearations later with no checks and balances, still no. So to be clear, this issue for you is not about reparations in general, but HOW they should be disseminated, correct?
I don't agree with you regarding who should pay. The founders, as a whole, accepted slavery as the price for unity. So too, they accepted that our nation would have to deal with it later on. Hello. THIS is later on. Did only the Nazi's have to make 23 Billion dollar reparations after WWII, or did those dollars come from the German nation?
The question is not flawed, because it is not even hypothetical. It's just a thought experiment. Says so in the title. Called it that to avoid your exact position. Didn't work. Sigh.
I do agree that a well thought-out system of reparations would need to be developed. An understanding from the generations that succeeded the slave generation would have to be established and negotiated. Reparations in the form of free higher education, a small plot of federal land, or some other non-purely fiscal nature would be offered.
I think it can be done, if the will of the people to make it happen was there.
You don't sound opposed to this idea, you just don't like the way our government spends money.
Freon
Don't tell me what I like just give me your plan on how to do it. It's all ll I ever asked of you. I answered your question. Did you answer mine other than to say there should be a plan? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 22:16:53 GMT
90% of all current violent crime is committed by gangs, 50% are hispanic, 35% black, according to the fbi assessment on gang activity in the us....the rest of gangs are white and asian, etc....should we add up the cost of all violent crime in cities and divide that cost by race on a race based prorata basis... I can make a much more compelling argument for that than I can making whites, many of whom came after slavery ended pay reparations to another race, for something that happened centuries ago.... would africa also be chipping in a third, since they represented 1/3rd of the trade benefit.... also, what about black slave owners, how do blacks in the US help pay reparations We chose, as a nation, to accept slavery as part of the original deal. That's why an amendment was needed to end it.
That makes all of us, including those who emigrated here after, part of that responsibility.
We all accept slavery as part of our history, and therefore it is all our responsibility to do what we can to heal that wound.
You conservatives talk a good deal about personal responsibility, but when there is a burden in it for you, suddenly you run in the opposite direction.
Freon
You seem to like to speak for what others should accept. No, someone who wasn't here doesn't by defaualt have to agree to your decison on what should happen with reparations. You make statements as if they are rules. Show me where it says that we have to accept the mistakes of the past and then make good on them over a hundred years later. That's simply your view, not a mandate as you try to make it sound. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 22:25:31 GMT
We chose, as a nation, to accept slavery as part of the original deal. That's why an amendment was needed to end it.
That makes all of us, including those who emigrated here after, part of that responsibility.
We all accept slavery as part of our history, and therefore it is all our responsibility to do what we can to heal that wound.
You conservatives talk a good deal about personal responsibility, but when there is a burden in it for you, suddenly you run in the opposite direction.
Freon
freon, slavery has existed throughout history and was a common practice...barbary coast, egypitians, jews, africa still today....
the first slaves came from africa, sold by black africans....they first ship arrived in 1619...now, the last I checked, america was founded much later...there was no america in 1619...
should I be able to sue a doctor today because the docs in 1900 cared for my great grandfather poorly....
its not going to happen, because there is no logical basis for it...
you are penalizing me, for something someone who was here long before my ancestors were here did...both blacks and white...but you only want to target whites...
try this on...can I hold the current family members financially responsible for killings, property damage their relatives do...ie son is a gang member, shoots a guy in his teens, leaves that guys kids fatherless...do we go after that gang members family and say you need to pay these folks for life for what your kid did or your relative did....
the whole basis of our society is each is an individual and not accountable for crimes committed by others...no less something that was done hundreds of years ago, which was not even a crime back then. As you pointed out, you don't punish people today for the sins of the past. This conversation is starting to be a big waste of time. The OP only wants to hear "yes" to reparations and really doesn't give a shit about much else. He makes up mandates as he goes along. No, immigrants today don't have to pay for mistakes of the past by default. He can barely bring himself to accept the bureaucracy aspect and he dismisses every other argument. Sound like he's full of guilt. I'd like to hear why anyone today should agree to reparations, period. All I've heard was that it was wrong, to which no one has argued otherwise. But why people today should be burdened with something of the past, he can't seem to put up a convincing argument other than to agree with what most said, it was wrong. That we all agree on. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 22:33:14 GMT
So often people focus on the negatives of slavery, but there are positives too. If it weren't for American slavery, most of today's American blacks (or their counterparts under an alternative history) would be in Africa. In America, the average income for blacks is $39,000. In West Africa, it's about $5,000. So today's blacks in America are actually benefitting quite a lot from the fact that their ancestors were slaves, versus if they had not been taken as slaves and had been left in Africa. For incomes, I'm using average purchasing power parity for West African countries and average income for America blacks. Is there a better comparison to use? Take it a step further and anayze how well Liberia is doing considering the reason for it's existence. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 22:35:33 GMT
I'm not a conservative, but this is an issue I've puzzled over for a long time. I'm not opposed, in principle, to reparations to the African American community. I'm just not sure there's anything that can be done? Ask any poor lottery winner how that worked out for them. And we're not even talking about "lottery winning" numbers here. Reparations would probably give blacks what ... twenty grand? There'd be some new cars bought. Maybe a bitchin sound system or two. Then what? Affirmative action has been our attempt at reparations for a few decades now. It's having an impact and is helping. But it's not enough. There's a culture of hopelessness and despair in many African American communities brought about by well over a century of being kneecapped and stopped every time they've made attempts to better themselves. Those obstacles were removed over a generation ago. But when you grow up in a culture of "it's hopeless" ... you develop an attitude of "it's hopeless." Give them land? The 40 acres and a mule they were originally promised as reparations after the war? Well, we saw how that worked out for the native population. Give them the shittiest of land ... and when they figure out how to turn it into ranchland, dam the rivers to cut off water supplies so they can't compete with their white ranching neighbors. What land would we give them? Unlimited funds just makes the conundrum worse. The change has to happen within these despair ridden African American communities. Kevin Hart doesn't need reparations. Lebron James doesn't need reparations. Colin Kaepernick doesn't need reparations. There's all kinds of problems with this type of approach. Making poor Hispanic immigrants pay so Lebron James gets a check isn't justice either. The best thing we can do for the African American community is make sure they can find a job. And nobody has done better at that than Trump. There's a reason Black Lives Matter was silent until the shutdowns made George Floyd unessential. Queshank As you stated, you're not a conservative and you get it. That's because it's not a conservative verus libreral or left issue as it trying to be framed as. |
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 22:50:35 GMT
I'm not a conservative, but this is an issue I've puzzled over for a long time. I'm not opposed, in principle, to reparations to the African American community. I'm just not sure there's anything that can be done? Ask any poor lottery winner how that worked out for them. And we're not even talking about "lottery winning" numbers here. Reparations would probably give blacks what ... twenty grand? There'd be some new cars bought. Maybe a bitchin sound system or two. Then what? Affirmative action has been our attempt at reparations for a few decades now. It's having an impact and is helping. But it's not enough. There's a culture of hopelessness and despair in many African American communities brought about by well over a century of being kneecapped and stopped every time they've made attempts to better themselves. Those obstacles were removed over a generation ago. But when you grow up in a culture of "it's hopeless" ... you develop an attitude of "it's hopeless." Give them land? The 40 acres and a mule they were originally promised as reparations after the war? Well, we saw how that worked out for the native population. Give them the shittiest of land ... and when they figure out how to turn it into ranchland, dam the rivers to cut off water supplies so they can't compete with their white ranching neighbors. What land would we give them? Unlimited funds just makes the conundrum worse. The change has to happen within these despair ridden African American communities. Kevin Hart doesn't need reparations. Lebron James doesn't need reparations. Colin Kaepernick doesn't need reparations. There's all kinds of problems with this type of approach. Making poor Hispanic immigrants pay so Lebron James gets a check isn't justice either. The best thing we can do for the African American community is make sure they can find a job. And nobody has done better at that than Trump. There's a reason Black Lives Matter was silent until the shutdowns made George Floyd unessential. Queshank Your opinion is that is the best thing we can do. Why not let them decide?
The main question is should we, not how can we.
It sounds like you agree we should.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 22:57:45 GMT
We chose, as a nation, to accept slavery as part of the original deal. That's why an amendment was needed to end it.
That makes all of us, including those who emigrated here after, part of that responsibility.
We all accept slavery as part of our history, and therefore it is all our responsibility to do what we can to heal that wound.
You conservatives talk a good deal about personal responsibility, but when there is a burden in it for you, suddenly you run in the opposite direction.
Freon
freon, slavery has existed throughout history and was a common practice...barbary coast, egypitians, jews, africa still today....
the first slaves came from africa, sold by black africans....they first ship arrived in 1619...now, the last I checked, america was founded much later...there was no america in 1619...
should I be able to sue a doctor today because the docs in 1900 cared for my great grandfather poorly....
its not going to happen, because there is no logical basis for it...
you are penalizing me, for something someone who was here long before my ancestors were here did...both blacks and white...but you only want to target whites...
try this on...can I hold the current family members financially responsible for killings, property damage their relatives do...ie son is a gang member, shoots a guy in his teens, leaves that guys kids fatherless...do we go after that gang members family and say you need to pay these folks for life for what your kid did or your relative did....
the whole basis of our society is each is an individual and not accountable for crimes committed by others...no less something that was done hundreds of years ago, which was not even a crime back then. How did the doctors of 1900 systemically harm your race? Another terrible false equivalence. You are full of them.
What it sounds like you don't want to accept is the responsibility your country has to people's it has harmed.
If I am penalizing you, then I am penalizing every single American equally. I love my country, and when our shared history has caused such a terrible wound, then it is our responsibility as G-d following people to make it right.
Does your religion not teach this? Are you an atheist? What values do you have?
Your last statement is just made-up nonsense. Our society is based on a set of values that we codified in the our founding documents. It is based on a shared sense ownership of this country, including its past. We have the ability to right a wrong, even if by a little bit, and that is worth it to me.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 22:59:07 GMT
So to be clear, this issue for you is not about reparations in general, but HOW they should be disseminated, correct?
I don't agree with you regarding who should pay. The founders, as a whole, accepted slavery as the price for unity. So too, they accepted that our nation would have to deal with it later on. Hello. THIS is later on. Did only the Nazi's have to make 23 Billion dollar reparations after WWII, or did those dollars come from the German nation?
The question is not flawed, because it is not even hypothetical. It's just a thought experiment. Says so in the title. Called it that to avoid your exact position. Didn't work. Sigh.
I do agree that a well thought-out system of reparations would need to be developed. An understanding from the generations that succeeded the slave generation would have to be established and negotiated. Reparations in the form of free higher education, a small plot of federal land, or some other non-purely fiscal nature would be offered.
I think it can be done, if the will of the people to make it happen was there.
You don't sound opposed to this idea, you just don't like the way our government spends money.
Freon
Don't tell me what I like just give me your plan on how to do it. It's all ll I ever asked of you. I answered your question. Did you answer mine other than to say there should be a plan? You are such an angry fellow.
This is MY thread. I started it to get info, and that is what is occurring.
Go start your own thread if you want to discuss something else.
Sheesh.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 23:00:49 GMT
We chose, as a nation, to accept slavery as part of the original deal. That's why an amendment was needed to end it.
That makes all of us, including those who emigrated here after, part of that responsibility.
We all accept slavery as part of our history, and therefore it is all our responsibility to do what we can to heal that wound.
You conservatives talk a good deal about personal responsibility, but when there is a burden in it for you, suddenly you run in the opposite direction.
Freon
You seem to like to speak for what others should accept. No, someone who wasn't here doesn't by defaualt have to agree to your decison on what should happen with reparations. You make statements as if they are rules. Show me where it says that we have to accept the mistakes of the past and then make good on them over a hundred years later. That's simply your view, not a mandate as you try to make it sound. Yes, totally my opinion.
Are you just now realizing this is a forum?
That's what we do here, we express our points of view.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 23:06:22 GMT
As you pointed out, you don't punish people today for the sins of the past. This conversation is starting to be a big waste of time. The OP only wants to hear "yes" to reparations and really doesn't give a shit about much else. He makes up mandates as he goes along. No, immigrants today don't have to pay for mistakes of the past by default. He can barely bring himself to accept the bureaucracy aspect and he dismisses every other argument. Sound like he's full of guilt. I'd like to hear why anyone today should agree to reparations, period. All I've heard was that it was wrong, to which no one has argued otherwise. But why people today should be burdened with something of the past, he can't seem to put up a convincing argument other than to agree with what most said, it was wrong. That we all agree on. You should act on your words and stop posting so much in here.
I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the responses I've read so far.
I expected you conservatives to see this issue as purely financial, but you seem to care far more about shared responsibility than anything else. You don't want it. But why then, should the Native Americans have reservations? We won, they lost, they should all integrate into our country or just leave. Yet we don't do that. We give them sovereignty because we acknowledge that we did a great harm to them.
Why are former slaves any different?
It is baffling. On the surface, the only plausible reason is because they are black, but everyone here will claim they are no racist.
The hunt for the truth continues, and thanks everyone for participating.
Freon
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 23:07:49 GMT
Don't tell me what I like just give me your plan on how to do it. It's all ll I ever asked of you. I answered your question. Did you answer mine other than to say there should be a plan? You are such an angry fellow.
This is MY thread. I started it to get info, and that is what is occurring.
Go start your own thread if you want to discuss something else.
Sheesh.
Freon
Stomp your feet and fuck-off. Your thread!  You own it? Did you purchase exclusive rights to it? I've been on topic from the start. You can't defend your ridiculous position. You purposely constrained all replies in order to get a response you desire. Bullshit all you like, but both Cons and Libs won't randomly agree to reparations without knowing the details that you have consistently dismissed and refused to outline. The proof in the bulk of your assinine thread, crybaby. Now who is angry because he's frustrated with the replies. Had you asked if reparations would be a morallly correct thing to do if there was a plan on how to do it and you might have gotten the replies you are seeking. Instead your framed it as conservatives vs Libs and even non-cons don't agree with you. Does calling me angry make your case. Apparenty not since I'd say you are gently getting your ass handed to you in most of the replies. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 23:10:16 GMT
As you pointed out, you don't punish people today for the sins of the past. This conversation is starting to be a big waste of time. The OP only wants to hear "yes" to reparations and really doesn't give a shit about much else. He makes up mandates as he goes along. No, immigrants today don't have to pay for mistakes of the past by default. He can barely bring himself to accept the bureaucracy aspect and he dismisses every other argument. Sound like he's full of guilt. I'd like to hear why anyone today should agree to reparations, period. All I've heard was that it was wrong, to which no one has argued otherwise. But why people today should be burdened with something of the past, he can't seem to put up a convincing argument other than to agree with what most said, it was wrong. That we all agree on. You should act on your words and stop posting so much in here.
I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the responses I've read so far.
I expected you conservatives to see this issue as purely financial, but you seem to care far more about shared responsibility than anything else. You don't want it. But why then, should the Native Americans have reservations? We won, they lost, they should all integrate into our country or just leave. Yet we don't do that. We give them sovereignty because we acknowledge that we did a great harm to them.
Why are former slaves any different?
It is baffling. On the surface, the only plausible reason is because they are black, but everyone here will claim they are no racist.
The hunt for the truth continues, and thanks everyone for participating.
Freon
There's the ownership of the thread angle again. No one said any of the crap you just stated. When did we start talking about Native Americans? I thought it was about Cons view on reparations. Who is it again that is off his own topic? I see that you drew your conclusions which are not based on anything said but only your pre-drawn conclusion. Sorry if everyone seen right through your attempt at painting cons in a certain way. Thanks for confiming what i said a few dozen post ago, yet you denied. Maybe Bailout is a better name than freonbale. |
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Post by freonbale on Jul 29, 2020 23:16:04 GMT
You should act on your words and stop posting so much in here.
I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the responses I've read so far.
I expected you conservatives to see this issue as purely financial, but you seem to care far more about shared responsibility than anything else. You don't want it. But why then, should the Native Americans have reservations? We won, they lost, they should all integrate into our country or just leave. Yet we don't do that. We give them sovereignty because we acknowledge that we did a great harm to them.
Why are former slaves any different?
It is baffling. On the surface, the only plausible reason is because they are black, but everyone here will claim they are no racist.
The hunt for the truth continues, and thanks everyone for participating.
Freon
There's the ownership of the thread angle again. No one said any of the crap you just stated. When did we start talking about Native Americans? I thought it was about Cons view on reparations. Who is it again that is off his own topic? I see that you drew your conclusions which are not based on anything said but only your pre-drawn conclusion. Sorry if everyone seen right through your attempt at painting cons in a certain way. Thanks for confiming what i said a few dozen post ago, yet you denied. Maybe Bailout is a better name than freonbale. Ok, now I'm just laughing as I read what you are writing.
You are babbling incoherently. Maybe you need a good cold beer to cool off. You seem like a Bud man.
Freon
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 23:21:03 GMT
There's the ownership of the thread angle again. No one said any of the crap you just stated. When did we start talking about Native Americans? I thought it was about Cons view on reparations. Who is it again that is off his own topic? I see that you drew your conclusions which are not based on anything said but only your pre-drawn conclusion. Sorry if everyone seen right through your attempt at painting cons in a certain way. Thanks for confiming what i said a few dozen post ago, yet you denied. Maybe Bailout is a better name than freonbale. Ok, now I'm just laughing as I read what you are writing.
You are babbling incoherently. Maybe you need a good cold beer to cool off. You seem like a Bud man.
Freon
LOL You're the one whining that it's your thread. Nice attempt at transference. I'm a Coors Banquetbeer Man myself. But the one blabbering and wanting to make his exit seems to be you. I'm still waiting to hear what your point was asking only cons and what outcome you were hoping to get. Everyone agreed it was morally wrong a position a dummy could have predicted before you asked. |
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Post by jasmine on Jul 30, 2020 0:00:54 GMT
No and no.
1. I could not possibly care less about the plight of today’s blacks or how hurt they feel about slavery. Slavery was over 100 years ago. Get over it. I don’t want a penny of my tax dollars going to any lazy black who wants to use slavery as a cash grab.
1. It is not government’s responsibility to provide health care to people who are not responsible enough to get it themselves.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 30, 2020 0:42:05 GMT
There's the ownership of the thread angle again. No one said any of the crap you just stated. When did we start talking about Native Americans? I thought it was about Cons view on reparations. Who is it again that is off his own topic? I see that you drew your conclusions which are not based on anything said but only your pre-drawn conclusion. Sorry if everyone seen right through your attempt at painting cons in a certain way. Thanks for confiming what i said a few dozen post ago, yet you denied. Maybe Bailout is a better name than freonbale. Ok, now I'm just laughing as I read what you are writing.
You are babbling incoherently. Maybe you need a good cold beer to cool off. You seem like a Bud man.
Freon
How to Block a Troll:
Click on member's name
In the View Profile Screen, click on the little down arrow next to the settings gear
Select Block Member
Check all
Select Block Member to save
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Post by freonbale on Jul 30, 2020 4:57:20 GMT
Ok, now I'm just laughing as I read what you are writing.
You are babbling incoherently. Maybe you need a good cold beer to cool off. You seem like a Bud man.
Freon
LOL You're the one whining that it's your thread. Nice attempt at transference. I'm a Coors Banquetbeer Man myself. But the one blabbering and wanting to make his exit seems to be you. I'm still waiting to hear what your point was asking only cons and what outcome you were hoping to get. Everyone agreed it was morally wrong a position a dummy could have predicted before you asked. Wow, I thought calling him a Bud man was an insult, but he lowered himself to Coors? Might as well drink urine.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Jul 30, 2020 4:58:38 GMT
No and no. 1. I could not possibly care less about the plight of today’s blacks or how hurt they feel about slavery. Slavery was over 100 years ago. Get over it. I don’t want a penny of my tax dollars going to any lazy black who wants to use slavery as a cash grab. 1. It is not government’s responsibility to provide health care to people who are not responsible enough to get it themselves. So even with no hit to you financially, you would still not give them a penny?
That's pretty cold, Jaz, pretty darn cold.
Freon
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Post by jasmine on Jul 30, 2020 5:14:28 GMT
No and no. 1. I could not possibly care less about the plight of today’s blacks or how hurt they feel about slavery. Slavery was over 100 years ago. Get over it. I don’t want a penny of my tax dollars going to any lazy black who wants to use slavery as a cash grab. 1. It is not government’s responsibility to provide health care to people who are not responsible enough to get it themselves. So even with no hit to you financially, you would still not give them a penny?
That's pretty cold, Jaz, pretty darn cold.
Freon
Too bad. It’s the principle. It’s about personal responsibility. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,115
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 30, 2020 7:04:08 GMT
No and no. 1. I could not possibly care less about the plight of today’s blacks or how hurt they feel about slavery. Slavery was over 100 years ago. Get over it. I don’t want a penny of my tax dollars going to any lazy black who wants to use slavery as a cash grab. 1. It is not government’s responsibility to provide health care to people who are not responsible enough to get it themselves. So even with no hit to you financially, you would still not give them a penny?
That's pretty cold, Jaz, pretty darn cold.
Freon
Well, Jasman does regularly lobby for mass executions for the flimsiest of reasons.
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