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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 7, 2020 21:53:38 GMT
You know being an atheist, it's more likely that I'll find the "weak" arguments of an atheist more convincing than the "strong" ones of a religious guy which means that I may not come up with anything that meets your approval, just a guess. Before I read this book, I need to know that it will serve a purpose of some kind. So again, can you at least give me say three things that you found outrageously unintelligent in that book? Maybe I already agree with them, in which case reading the book would just be a waste of time. You're really trying to get out of this aren't you?  Dawkins presents convincing arguments against... weak arguments. At no point in the book does he take on a seriously credible argument. It's almost like he is triumphantly announcing that he has proven snake handlers wrong, and that this proves all religion wrong. Okay, it's been quite a few years since I read it, but here are five: 1) He dismisses "faith" as "belief without evidence." Yeah, that's not what faith [Gr: pistis] is. 2) He acts as if theodicy is a foreign concept to Christians--that Christians have never before thought about or address the problem of evil (!). Which means that he has (deliberately?) ignored literally thousands of years of writing. 3) He acts as if religion is the root of "everything wrong with the world," dismissing obvious cases of explicitly atheist states massacring literally millions and millions of people just in the last century alone. 4) He claims that religion is an "accident of evolution" that should be discarded because it is misleading and dangerous. He ignores the positive benefits, both past and current. 5) He claims that the values we hold (which may have "emerged in a religious context") are ultimately also an "accident of evolution" that should be retained but does not and seemingly CANnot say WHY! Why "hold this and discard that"? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 5:34:53 GMT
You know being an atheist, it's more likely that I'll find the "weak" arguments of an atheist more convincing than the "strong" ones of a religious guy which means that I may not come up with anything that meets your approval, just a guess. Before I read this book, I need to know that it will serve a purpose of some kind. So again, can you at least give me say three things that you found outrageously unintelligent in that book? Maybe I already agree with them, in which case reading the book would just be a waste of time. You're really trying to get out of this aren't you? .... No, I plan to read that book but thanks to your points I'll know what to pay special attention to. I may start a thread about this in a few days. Personally I don't think that religion is an accident of nature, I think it's more of a necessary transition. I think it'll eventually die but it will take a very long time, so long that it's possible that humankind will go extinct before it could happen. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 8, 2020 6:06:19 GMT
You're really trying to get out of this aren't you? .... No, I plan to read that book but thanks to your points I'll know what to pay special attention to. I may start a thread about this in a few days. Personally I don't think that religion is an accident of nature, I think it's more of a necessary transition. I think it'll eventually die but it will take a very long time, so long that it's possible that humankind will go extinct before it could happen. Necessary therefore, unnecessary. Got it. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 8, 2020 6:07:55 GMT
No, I plan to read that book but thanks to your points I'll know what to pay special attention to. I may start a thread about this in a few days. Personally I don't think that religion is an accident of nature, I think it's more of a necessary transition. I think it'll eventually die but it will take a very long time, so long that it's possible that humankind will go extinct before it could happen. Necessary therefore, unnecessary. Got it. And think awhile before starting that thread. Friend to friend. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 10:06:38 GMT
Got it! A friend of mine lent me the audio version, read by Dawkins himself. So I am sure it will be read the way god intended.  It's 14 hours long. I'll get back to you in a few days. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 12:54:27 GMT
I have a lot on my plate so I haven't had much time to listen to the book. I am only one hour through, but I must say, so far the man is batting a thousand.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 12, 2020 3:42:19 GMT
I have a lot on my plate so I haven't had much time to listen to the book. I am only one hour through, but I must say, so far the man is batting a thousand. WTF? I'm an old guy staring at the oncoming abyss, and you're too busy to listen to a book? Not even read it? But only just listen? HTF am I supposed to know what to do about my immortal soul, you uncaring fvck, while you "clear your plate"? FU, guy. FU. |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 27, 2020 22:54:12 GMT
Liberalism enables capitalism. Before liberalism you just had guilds, mercantilism, feudalism. A lack of rules-based conduct. The Conservative mindset is that which opposes the gains made by liberalism in the face of steadfast defence by reactionaries from King John to Vladimir Putin. Oh there were rules... but they were not based on equality before the law or natural rights or anything like that. They were based on kin and status, blood and soil. Other than that, you are quite right, the gains that have been hard won by liberalism, like equal rights for religious minorities, black people, women, homosexuals, non-binary folks, and individuals of all kinds, is the best part of the liberal/commercial world, but that also means capitalism and liberalism are *inexorably* in conflict with the kind of world conservatives want, a world where traditional values hold sway. Liberalism ensures that cultural evolution will continue to upset the established order. That's why the populist turn in rightwing politics in the Age of Trump is a sort of "homecoming" for conservatives. The alliance they had with the Rockefeller Republicans was never a good fit. The neoliberal policies of free trade and immigration which characterized the Republican party for so long eventually became a poison pill for social conservatives. Thus the rise of "national" conservatism. It is a pleasure to read your words. Freon |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Aug 31, 2020 5:16:20 GMT
That's a fantastic commentary on Roadrunner's post. I agree 100%. Cheeky responses aren't helping your position. On the contrary, I find them most edifying. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Aug 31, 2020 5:17:50 GMT
That's just so not even true. Capitalism did that. Liberalism seeks to slow, correct or change what capitalism does in the name of fairness. Not fairness of opportunity, which is the only true fairness, but fairness of outcome which has nothing to do with being fair and everything to do with being in control. Before liberalism you just had guilds, mercantilism, feudalism. A lack of rules-based conduct. The Conservative mindset is that which opposes the gains made by liberalism in the face of steadfast defence by reactionaries from King John to Vladimir Putin. Everybody's a critic. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Aug 31, 2020 5:22:36 GMT
Absolutely true, from your perspective. However, I believe that many in Watts' audience that day had a different perspective, having at some earlier time considered the possibility that your prime directive might be The Prime Directive, before moving on.
I have limited patience when it comes to esoteric noodling about various religions and the supposed supremacy of Christianity.
My own take is that I respect all religions to the extent that they promote understanding and good will to humans of every persuasion. To the extent they deviate from that ideal, not so much.
I also accept that so far, science is unable to explain exactly how the universe started, or how it will end. That it is unknown exactly what came before the "Big Bang" and what will come after our worlds fade away. But for some reason this kind of unknown doesn't disturb me. It's just more opportunity for discovery. I prefer not to make up some supreme being to account for the unknown.
I respect one's religion in the same way that I respect that one finds one's spouse attractive or one's children clever. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Aug 31, 2020 5:26:35 GMT
If you are an American Christian, you have no concept of what it is like to be persecuted.
This is true. Unlike Christians in parts of India, Africa, Vietnam, China, Uzbekistan... Are they being persecuted because they are Christian? Or because they are different? I realize that the Christian fundraising angle works best in this, the country with the most money and the most Christians. But is it valid or meaningful in any other way? |
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