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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:10:03 GMT
As long as you can deride the other side, I guess facing the shortcomings of your chosen ideology isn't necessary.  That's a fantastic commentary on Roadrunner's post. I agree 100%. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:14:22 GMT
Not the modern day liberal. Cute out. Can I say that about white people that use the N word? Maybe. But your assumption that it should be the government rather than society taints your statement. As long as you can deride the other side, I guess facing the shortcomings of your chosen ideology isn't necessary. Yes, the modern day liberal. Just because it is a minority position, doesn't mean it does not exist. Of course not. But you are defining liberalism as this great bastion of freedom and prosperity that promotes capitalism in one post and then the very next post you are down playing the existence of said people in the very same ideology. When you pull stuff out of your backside, it is going to be feces. Now you are just making stuff up and hoping I won't notice. I noticed. You can tell people that support a tax funded system they don't support capitalism if the scope of the system prevents capitalistic opportunity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:14:46 GMT
As long as you can deride the other side, I guess facing the shortcomings of your chosen ideology isn't necessary. That's a fantastic commentary on Roadrunner's post. I agree 100%. Cheeky responses aren't helping your position. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:16:31 GMT
Yes, the modern day liberal. Just because it is a minority position, doesn't mean it does not exist. Of course not. But you are defining liberalism as this great bastion of freedom and prosperity that promotes capitalism in one post and then the very next post you are down playing the existence of said people in the very same ideology. When you pull stuff out of your backside, it is going to be feces. Now you are just making stuff up and hoping I won't notice. I noticed. You can tell people that support a tax funded system they don't support capitalism if the scope of the system prevents capitalistic opportunity. Its a big tent philosophy open to people who are broadly pro-market, support constitutional governance, and support a plural or inclusive society with individual freedom and liberty. There are legit litmus tests you could apply but the one you are imagining is not a valid example of one. The rest of your post is not worth responding to. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:17:41 GMT
That's a fantastic commentary on Roadrunner's post. I agree 100%. Cheeky responses aren't helping your position. In this discussion I do not need to worry about my position. I could slam a bottle scotch and still come out on top. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:21:29 GMT
Of course not. But you are defining liberalism as this great bastion of freedom and prosperity that promotes capitalism in one post and then the very next post you are down playing the existence of said people in the very same ideology. When you pull stuff out of your backside, it is going to be feces. Now you are just making stuff up and hoping I won't notice. I noticed. You can tell people that support a tax funded system they don't support capitalism if the scope of the system prevents capitalistic opportunity. Its a big tent philosophy open to people who are broadly pro-market, constitutional governance, and support a plural, inclusive society with individual freedom and liberty. There are legit litmus tests you could apply, but the one you are imagining does not work. The rest of your post is not worth responding to. American liberals, which is what we are talking about, do not have a big tent. They have a very narrow tent and all others must be shouted down, erased from history and utterly destroyed. If you think modern liberalism in America is a big tent, then you must have some mightily rose colored glasses on my son. Don't believe me? Tell a liberal that government funded health care is unsustainable. You might end up dead. Tell a liberal that rich people might be rich because they worked hard. You will end up dead. There is no room for alternative ideas in modern liberalism. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:21:55 GMT
Cheeky responses aren't helping your position. In this discussion I do not need to worry about my position. I could slam a bottle scotch and still come out on top. Of the tiled floor, maybe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:24:52 GMT
Its a big tent philosophy open to people who are broadly pro-market, constitutional governance, and support a plural, inclusive society with individual freedom and liberty. There are legit litmus tests you could apply, but the one you are imagining does not work. The rest of your post is not worth responding to. American liberals, which is what we are talking about, do not have a big tent. They have a very narrow tent and all others must be shouted down, erased from history and utterly destroyed. If you think modern liberalism in America is a big tent, then you must have some mightily rose colored glasses on my son. Don't believe me? Tell a liberal that government funded health care is unsustainable. You might end up dead. Tell a liberal that rich people might be rich because they worked hard. You will end up dead. There is no room for alternative ideas in modern liberalism. I'm talking about liberalism, not "American" liberals, whoever you imagine they are. (as an aside, I am reading a book by one of the foremost American liberals writing today, and I guarantee you've never heard of her) If you are looking to the Democratic party, or the American left, for the locus of liberalism in the US, you will be disappointed time and time again. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:27:47 GMT
In this discussion I do not need to worry about my position. I could slam a bottle scotch and still come out on top. Of the tiled floor, maybe. Anyone who comes into a discussion arguing that liberalism has been a bloody ideology in human history is automatically discredited. You don't realize it but your entire argument is hopeless. Like I said, I could drink a bottle of scotch. Hell, I could be dead. You could "Weekend at Bernie" me and zombie TL would win this debate. |
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Post by limey² on Jul 2, 2020 21:31:06 GMT
That has to be one of the craziest claims I have ever seen. Liberalism, in actual fact, has helped lift the world out of poverty. The age of liberalism is the age of reason, science, constitutional government, the rule of law, capitalism, peace, free trade, etc. The suggestion that liberalism has more blood on its hand than fascism or communism can be easily disproved. That's just so not even true. Capitalism did that. Liberalism seeks to slow, correct or change what capitalism does in the name of fairness. Not fairness of opportunity, which is the only true fairness, but fairness of outcome which has nothing to do with being fair and everything to do with being in control. Liberalism enables capitalism. Before liberalism you just had guilds, mercantilism, feudalism. A lack of rules-based conduct. The Conservative mindset is that which opposes the gains made by liberalism in the face of steadfast defence by reactionaries from King John to Vladimir Putin. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 21:47:39 GMT
That's just so not even true. Capitalism did that. Liberalism seeks to slow, correct or change what capitalism does in the name of fairness. Not fairness of opportunity, which is the only true fairness, but fairness of outcome which has nothing to do with being fair and everything to do with being in control. Liberalism enables capitalism. Before liberalism you just had guilds, mercantilism, feudalism. A lack of rules-based conduct. The Conservative mindset is that which opposes the gains made by liberalism in the face of steadfast defence by reactionaries from King John to Vladimir Putin. Oh there were rules... but they were not based on equality before the law or natural rights or anything like that. They were based on kin and status, blood and soil. Other than that, you are quite right, the gains that have been hard won by liberalism, like equal rights for religious minorities, black people, women, homosexuals, non-binary folks, and individuals of all kinds, is the best part of the liberal/commercial world, but that also means capitalism and liberalism are *inexorably* in conflict with the kind of world conservatives want, a world where traditional values hold sway. Liberalism ensures that cultural evolution will continue to upset the established order. That's why the populist turn in rightwing politics in the Age of Trump is a sort of "homecoming" for conservatives. The alliance they had with the Rockefeller Republicans was never a good fit. The neoliberal policies of free trade and immigration which characterized the Republican party for so long eventually became a poison pill for social conservatives. Thus the rise of "national" conservatism. |
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Post by limey² on Jul 2, 2020 23:27:25 GMT
Liberalism enables capitalism. Before liberalism you just had guilds, mercantilism, feudalism. A lack of rules-based conduct. The Conservative mindset is that which opposes the gains made by liberalism in the face of steadfast defence by reactionaries from King John to Vladimir Putin. Oh there were rules... but they were not based on equality before the law or natural rights or anything like that. They were based on kin and status, blood and soil. Other than that, you are quite right, the gains that have been hard won by liberalism, like equal rights for religious minorities, black people, women, homosexuals, non-binary folks, and individuals of all kinds, is the best part of the liberal/commercial world, but that also means capitalism and liberalism are *inexorably* in conflict with the kind of world conservatives want, a world where traditional values hold sway. Liberalism ensures that cultural evolution will continue to upset the established order. That's why the populist turn in rightwing politics in the Age of Trump is a sort of "homecoming" for conservatives. The alliance they had with the Rockefeller Republicans was never a good fit. The neoliberal policies of free trade and immigration which characterized the Republican party for so long eventually became a poison pill for social conservatives. Thus the rise of "national" conservatism. I should have said "LEGITIMATE rules-based". |
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Post by freonbale on Jul 2, 2020 23:49:45 GMT
your religion is Liberalism which has killed more people than any virus in history has. I used to think I was a liberal, but this forum taught me I'm more of a libertarian. And people dying in the name of Jesus FAR outweigh any other religion I can think of. You are the progeny of intolerant killers who are slowly fading away to history. Freon |
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Post by RWB on Jul 3, 2020 0:23:33 GMT
your religion is Liberalism which has killed more people than any virus in history has. I used to think I was a liberal, but this forum taught me I'm more of a libertarian. And people dying in the name of Jesus FAR outweigh any other religion I can think of. You are the progeny of intolerant killers who are slowly fading away to history. Freon OH IT'S TRUE IT'S DAMN TRUE. |
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Post by limey² on Jul 3, 2020 1:36:34 GMT
Religion is stupid.
Really, really stupid.
Especially the Big Three. And all the others.
Read Dawkins.
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Post by RWB on Jul 3, 2020 3:12:19 GMT
your religion is Liberalism which has killed more people than any virus in history has. That has to be one of the craziest claims I have ever seen. Liberalism, in actual fact, has helped lift the world out of poverty. The age of liberalism is the age of reason, science, constitutional government, the rule of law, capitalism, peace, free trade, etc. The suggestion that liberalism has more blood on its hand than fascism or communism can be easily disproved. oh it's True it's Damn True. YOU LIBERALS have the blood of millions of dead babies on your hands from your Evil practice called ABORTION |
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Post by jasmine on Jul 3, 2020 3:25:45 GMT
Good OP, KSU. I agree fully.
In the end, politics isn’t going to help anything. Neither will ideology nor activism. None of that.
Despite what unbelievers say, prayer is the most effective weapon against the evils going on in this world and nation. Leave people to their own devices and the world is doomed.
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Post by freonbale on Jul 3, 2020 3:32:41 GMT
oh it's True it's Damn True. YOU LIBERALS have the blood of millions of dead babies on your hands from your Evil practice called ABORTION I fully accept your interpretation of abortion, and am not even remotely bothered by it. Do you accept responsibility for the sins of your ancestors, and those currently killing and bigoted in the name of Jesus? Freon |
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Post by RWB on Jul 3, 2020 3:34:29 GMT
oh it's True it's Damn True. YOU LIBERALS have the blood of millions of dead babies on your hands from your Evil practice called ABORTION I fully accept your interpretation of abortion, and am not even remotely bothered by it. Do you accept responsibility for the sins of your ancestors, and those currently killing and bigoted in the name of Jesus? Freon WTF are you talking about Willis |
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Post by freonbale on Jul 3, 2020 3:38:44 GMT
Good OP, KSU. I agree fully. In the end, politics isn’t going to help anything. Neither will ideology nor activism. None of that. Despite what unbelievers say, prayer is the most effective weapon against the evils going on in this world and nation. Leave people to their own devices and the world is doomed. I challenge anyone here to have as rock solid Faith as I do, yet prayer is meaningless without action. Your own religion teaches that G-d helps those who help themselves. Your own religion is telling you that you cannot just pray away your problems, that you must take responsibility for them.
What has always doomed our species are those who do not question dogma and who look to religion to justify their negatively selfish actions. You know...., fundamentalist Christians 
Freon
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