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Post by jasmine on Jul 3, 2020 3:40:57 GMT
Good OP, KSU. I agree fully. In the end, politics isn’t going to help anything. Neither will ideology nor activism. None of that. Despite what unbelievers say, prayer is the most effective weapon against the evils going on in this world and nation. Leave people to their own devices and the world is doomed. Your own religion teaches that G-d helps those who help themselves. Hee Hee!  |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 3, 2020 4:34:10 GMT
Good OP, KSU. I agree fully. In the end, politics isn’t going to help anything. Neither will ideology nor activism. None of that. Despite what unbelievers say, prayer is the most effective weapon against the evils going on in this world and nation. Leave people to their own devices and the world is doomed.
But Jasmen, doesn't just prayer do the same? Leaves people to their own devices?
Even Jesus went beyond prayer, as with the forty loaves and fishes.
Feed a starving person and they will follow you.
Pray to them instead, and they'll probably just roll their eyes before leaving to find their own food.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 3, 2020 5:02:26 GMT
"We are not going to have democracy in the Kingdom of Heaven!" Jesus was the subversive Son of the Boss. Some interesting thoughts that are completely divorced from the way "Son of God" would have been heard by Jesus' audience. It's also an interesting attempt to squeeze Jesus and his message into a foreign (i.e., eastern) point of view. Karma is only barely compatible with Judaism and Christianity, partly because, in contrast to eastern religions, God is not manifested pantheistically or panentheistically, but is "wholly other" (holy other?) from Creation. Absolutely true, from your perspective. However, I believe that many in Watts' audience that day had a different perspective, having at some earlier time considered the possibility that your prime directive might be The Prime Directive, before moving on. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 3, 2020 7:05:43 GMT
Some interesting thoughts that are completely divorced from the way "Son of God" would have been heard by Jesus' audience. It's also an interesting attempt to squeeze Jesus and his message into a foreign (i.e., eastern) point of view. Karma is only barely compatible with Judaism and Christianity, partly because, in contrast to eastern religions, God is not manifested pantheistically or panentheistically, but is "wholly other" (holy other?) from Creation. Absolutely true, from your perspective. However, I believe that many in Watts' audience that day had a different perspective, having at some earlier time considered the possibility that your prime directive might be The Prime Directive, before moving on.
I have limited patience when it comes to esoteric noodling about various religions and the supposed supremacy of Christianity.
My own take is that I respect all religions to the extent that they promote understanding and good will to humans of every persuasion. To the extent they deviate from that ideal, not so much.
I also accept that so far, science is unable to explain exactly how the universe started, or how it will end. That it is unknown exactly what came before the "Big Bang" and what will come after our worlds fade away. But for some reason this kind of unknown doesn't disturb me. It's just more opportunity for discovery. I prefer not to make up some supreme being to account for the unknown.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 3, 2020 14:13:23 GMT
Absolutely true, from your perspective. However, I believe that many in Watts' audience that day had a different perspective, having at some earlier time considered the possibility that your prime directive might be The Prime Directive, before moving on.
I have limited patience when it comes to esoteric noodling about various religions and the supposed supremacy of Christianity.
My own take is that I respect all religions to the extent that they promote understanding and good will to humans of every persuasion. To the extent they deviate from that ideal, not so much.
I also accept that so far, science is unable to explain exactly how the universe started, or how it will end. That it is unknown exactly what came before the "Big Bang" and what will come after our worlds fade away. But for some reason this kind of unknown doesn't disturb me. It's just more opportunity for discovery. I prefer not to make up some supreme being to account for the unknown.
I mostly agree, but it is important to me not to quash curiosity of explanations more mystical than scientific in the name of even science, which is also curiosity. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 14:25:27 GMT
Absolutely true, from your perspective. However, I believe that many in Watts' audience that day had a different perspective, having at some earlier time considered the possibility that your prime directive might be The Prime Directive, before moving on. people are ignorant of the historical meanings of "Son of God." I had a conversation with a family member who was convinced that you "had to believe that Jesus was the Son of God" to be a legit Christian. But, what do you mean that? You believe "the words"? Like some kind of mantra? What is it that the statement means that you claim to "believe it"? That God the Father had sex with Mary so that he was "Jesus' father"? No? Not that? So what does it mean? If someone says "I believe this" but can't explain it, what does it even mean to say "I believe it"? Of course...having a historic, cultural background might reveal that: 1) "Son of God" was the status of Israel, as per Israel's scriptures. The nation itself was God's "chosen firstborn son," the one who would carry out God's likeness and intention in the world. History repeatedly revealed that Israel was incapable of fulfilling this role. Jesus, claiming to be "Son of God" was claiming to be "true Israel" in the same way as claiming to be the "true vine" was making the same claim, since the "vine" was a known symbol of the nation of Israel. Both of these examples are clearly rooted in Old Testament scripture. 2) "Son of God" was a title claimed by Caesar (as was "prince of peace"). Caesar's authority to rule was based in part on the claim to divinity. When Jesus claimed to be "Son of God," it was a claim to authority that subversively challenged the claim of Caesar. Caesar, of course, brought peace ( Pax Romana) through the sword; Jesus brought peace through self-sacrificial love. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 14:33:02 GMT
I have limited patience when it comes to esoteric noodling about various religions and the supposed supremacy of Christianity.
My own take is that I respect all religions to the extent that they promote understanding and good will to humans of every persuasion. To the extent they deviate from that ideal, not so much.
I also accept that so far, science is unable to explain exactly how the universe started, or how it will end. That it is unknown exactly what came before the "Big Bang" and what will come after our worlds fade away. But for some reason this kind of unknown doesn't disturb me. It's just more opportunity for discovery. I prefer not to make up some supreme being to account for the unknown.
So...you value "understanding and good will to humans of every persuasion." That is not a universally held value. I appreciate that you hold it, but I wonder if you have a sense of where it "comes from." As for the "supposed supremacy of Christianity," it's pretty hard to make the claim, given many historical precedents--at least when it comes to the preponderance of expressions and actions done "in the name of Christianity." Sometimes I even wonder what people mean by the term "Christian." In many cases, what arose as some kind of mocking derogatory term has devolved into some kind of socio-political designation that has more to do with cultural expressions and heritage than it does the claims by and about Jesus himself. When it comes to the limited claims of science, sure you might posit a supreme being. But it's also quite the leap to go from "supreme being" straight to "Jesus." It's an interesting conversation, but not a short one. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 14:34:47 GMT
Your own religion teaches that G-d helps those who help themselves.
No, it doesn't. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 14:37:05 GMT
Religion is stupid. Really, really stupid. Especially the Big Three. And all the others. Read Dawkins. Dawkins is stupid. Really, really stupid, when he writes about what he doesn't know. Yeah, I read The God Delusion. A big book of weak arguments against weak claims. It's like...take the weakest, worst examples of what you disagree with and publicly dismantle them. Big deal. Anybody can do that. There's a reason Michael Ruse said that Richard Dawkins made him ashamed to be an atheist. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 14:44:36 GMT
I used to think I was a liberal, but this forum taught me I'm more of a libertarian. And people dying in the name of Jesus FAR outweigh any other religion I can think of. You are the progeny of intolerant killers who are slowly fading away to history. Freon A lot of people think the same kinds of things in the west because most of us are pretty ignorant of much of history. I'm sure you know that Christianity was spread far and wide in the east. Kublai Khan's mother was a Christian. But along came Tamerlane and pretty well wiped out Christianity in the east so that by the time Jesuit missionaries went to China in the 1500s, there were virtually no Christians left. But you know this...? You probably also know that more Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in all the rest of Christianity combined? Ottoman Turkey, Uganda, Communist China, U.S.S.R.... Although western Christianity developed a morbid love of violence, it's simply not true of Christianity worldwide. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:14:09 GMT
Religion is stupid. Really, really stupid. Especially the Big Three. And all the others. Dawkins is stupid. Really, really stupid, when he writes about what he doesn't know. Yeah, I read The God Delusion. A big book of weak arguments against weak claims. It's like...take the weakest, worst examples of what you disagree with and publicly dismantle them. Big deal. Anybody can do that. There's a reason Michael Ruse said that Richard Dawkins made him ashamed to be an atheist. Ashamed to be an atheist? That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying I am ashamed that I can read... BTW, I've never read any books by Dawkins.. I don't need to. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 3, 2020 17:16:34 GMT
your religion is Liberalism which has killed more people than any virus in history has. I used to think I was a liberal, but this forum taught me I'm more of a libertarian. And people dying in the name of Jesus FAR outweigh any other religion I can think of. You are the progeny of intolerant killers who are slowly fading away to history. Freon
I always have thought of you as being more of a librarian.
Shows what I know, eh what?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:19:09 GMT
A lot of people think the same kinds of things in the west because most of us are pretty ignorant of much of history. I'm sure you know that Christianity was spread far and wide in the east. Kublai Khan's mother was a Christian. But along came Tamerlane and pretty well wiped out Christianity in the east so that by the time Jesuit missionaries went to China in the 1500s, there were virtually no Christians left. But you know this...? You probably also know that more Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in all the rest of Christianity combined? Ottoman Turkey, Uganda, Communist China, U.S.S.R.... Although western Christianity developed a morbid love of violence, it's simply not true of Christianity worldwide. So you're the kind who can cry for hours about all the wrongs done to "Christians" (they are only Christians when it suits your purpose) but never say a word about the inquisition, the crusades or the wars between different "colors" of Christianity... |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 17:29:14 GMT
Ashamed to be an atheist? That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying I am ashamed that I can read... BTW, I've never read any books by Dawkins.. I don't need to. Take it up with Michael Ruse. He's a pretty intelligent fellow. And no, you don't need to read any books by Dawkins, although he's a pretty intelligent fellow when he sticks with his specialties. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 17:30:00 GMT
So you're the kind who can cry for hours about all the wrongs done to "Christians" (they are only Christians when it suits your purpose) but never say a word about the inquisition, the crusades or the wars between different "colors" of Christianity... Is that what you got from my post? I guess you didn't read until the end. But you...how would you define "Christian"? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:36:37 GMT
A lot of people think the same kinds of things in the west because most of us are pretty ignorant of much of history. I'm sure you know that Christianity was spread far and wide in the east. Kublai Khan's mother was a Christian. But along came Tamerlane and pretty well wiped out Christianity in the east so that by the time Jesuit missionaries went to China in the 1500s, there were virtually no Christians left. But you know this...? You probably also know that more Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in all the rest of Christianity combined? Ottoman Turkey, Uganda, Communist China, U.S.S.R.... Although western Christianity developed a morbid love of violence, it's simply not true of Christianity worldwide. So you're the kind who can cry for hours about all the wrongs done to "Christians" (they are only Christians when it suits your purpose) but never say a word about the inquisition, the crusades or the wars between different "colors" of Christianity... Just how long do you have to talk about those mistakes before we realize that A) Christians screw up. That's the big point. B) Those examples are almost 600 years ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:38:21 GMT
So you're the kind who can cry for hours about all the wrongs done to "Christians" (they are only Christians when it suits your purpose) but never say a word about the inquisition, the crusades or the wars between different "colors" of Christianity... Just how long do you have to talk about those mistakes before we realize that A) Christians screw up. That's the big point. B) Those examples are almost 600 years ago. How about something more recent, NAZI Germany? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:50:02 GMT
Just how long do you have to talk about those mistakes before we realize that A) Christians screw up. That's the big point. B) Those examples are almost 600 years ago. How about something more recent, NAZI Germany? Not one single Christian would ever accept the idea that NAZI Germany was related to Christianity. You post that like Christians loved it. But what about the millions of Christians that died to stop NAZI Germany? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:54:10 GMT
How about something more recent, NAZI Germany? Not one single Christian would ever accept the idea that NAZI Germany was related to Christianity. You post that like Christians loved it. But what about the millions of Christians that died to stop NAZI Germany? So, your christianity is more Christian than theirs? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:58:12 GMT
How about all those American Christians at the pro nazi rallies in Madison Square Garden like Fred Trump?
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