Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 17:58:51 GMT
Not one single Christian would ever accept the idea that NAZI Germany was related to Christianity. You post that like Christians loved it. But what about the millions of Christians that died to stop NAZI Germany? So, your christianity is more Christian than theirs? Well, yeah. The NAZIs attempted to eliminate all religion. So, that's a pretty big strike against them being Christian. Hell, they even prosecuted Catholics much the same way they did Jews. Do you even know history? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 18:02:16 GMT
So, your christianity is more Christian than theirs? Well, yeah. The NAZIs attempted to eliminate all religion. So, that's a pretty big strike against them being Christian. Hell, they even prosecuted Catholics much the same way they did Jews. Do you even know history? So I guess not much has changed, like modern day bible thumpers or Southern Baptists denouncing Catholics or the Pope as the wrong kind of Christians. One fucking weird religion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 18:07:51 GMT
Well, yeah. The NAZIs attempted to eliminate all religion. So, that's a pretty big strike against them being Christian. Hell, they even prosecuted Catholics much the same way they did Jews. Do you even know history? So I guess not much has changed, like modern day bible thumpers or Southern Baptists denouncing Catholics or the Pope as the wrong kind of Christians. One fucking weird religion. Wait...what? Denouncing NAZIs for trying to exterminate Jews and drive out religion in their nation as something other than Christian is the same as a Baptist saying Catholicism isn't Christianity? Well now that is a laugh and a half. You must have been one hell of a track star in high school, because that was the biggest damn leap of logic I have ever seen. I have three words for you; Pa...the...tic. |
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Jul 3, 2020 18:21:46 GMT
A lot of people think the same kinds of things in the west because most of us are pretty ignorant of much of history. I'm sure you know that Christianity was spread far and wide in the east. Kublai Khan's mother was a Christian. But along came Tamerlane and pretty well wiped out Christianity in the east so that by the time Jesuit missionaries went to China in the 1500s, there were virtually no Christians left. But you know this...? You probably also know that more Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in all the rest of Christianity combined? Ottoman Turkey, Uganda, Communist China, U.S.S.R.... Although western Christianity developed a morbid love of violence, it's simply not true of Christianity worldwide. You say 'martyred', I say murdered. The difference is WHY they were killed, which was predominately racially and ethnically driven. But The Crusades, for instance, were purely religious. The Inquisition, purely religious. The Imperial Expansion of England, Spain, Italy, and France to the New World, killing and enslaving native populations in the name of religion and wealth. Slavery itself, condoned in the Bible, and practiced by generations of Christians who felt it was their right. You Jesus followers live your comfortable lives because of a brutal history of intolerance and the suffering of others. Do you really expect me to feel sorry for you? You are the oppressors, not the victims. Freon |
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Jul 3, 2020 18:25:15 GMT
How about something more recent, NAZI Germany? Not one single Christian would ever accept the idea that NAZI Germany was related to Christianity. You post that like Christians loved it. But what about the millions of Christians that died to stop NAZI Germany? They sacrificed their lives because their own country was at risk, not to benefit any other group. They realized that if Nazi Germany grew, it would ultimately deny them their own freedoms, so stop making it sound like they were purely thinking of the populations that were systematically butchered.
If you are an American Christian, you have no concept of what it is like to be persecuted.
Freon
|
|
|
|
Post by Fiddler on Jul 3, 2020 19:18:31 GMT
Christianity ended in the 4th century giving way to Romanized Christianity spread at the tip of a sword. Full Stop.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 20:40:28 GMT
You say 'martyred', I say murdered. The difference is WHY they were killed, which was predominately racially and ethnically driven. But The Crusades, for instance, were purely religious. The Inquisition, purely religious. The Imperial Expansion of England, Spain, Italy, and France to the New World, killing and enslaving native populations in the name of religion and wealth. Slavery itself, condoned in the Bible, and practiced by generations of Christians who felt it was their right. You Jesus followers live your comfortable lives because of a brutal history of intolerance and the suffering of others. Do you really expect me to feel sorry for you? You are the oppressors, not the victims. Freon If you think the explicitly atheistic communist states systematically imprisoned and martyred murdered Christians because of racial and ethnic reasons, you are seriously mistaken. Do you know what the penalty was for owning a Bible in Soviet Russia? The Crusades were absolutely not "purely religious." There were different reasons, from the "threat of Muslim invasion," for which there was some validity, to the fabrication of a common goal to generate a common unity among European proto-nations, which were continually at war with one another. At best, religion was the excuse. Politics was the reason. The Inquisition was also not "purely religious." It was also political. Look at the relationship between the Pope and the Spanish monarchy at the time. Why was it that the Inquisition was initiated by Spain and not the Pope? And as horrific as the Inquisition was, how many deaths resulted? The Imperial Expansion of England, Spain, Italy, and France...yeah, wealth driven. Religion had two roles in that: 1) Once more, an excuse to justify conquest--kind of a "manifest destiny" type of thing. 2) A reverse of that manifest destiny, as missionaries on the ground fought (with varying levels of success) against colonial domination. Why did slavery disappear? Would it have disappeared without "Christian intervention"? More history...before Constantine turned "Christianity into Christendom," slavery was condemned by the early Church. In more recent history, it took the likes of William Wilberforce to force the tide against the common acceptance of slavery--something he spent his life for...motivated by his Christianity. And no, I don't expect you to feel sorry for me. I'm not complaining. I'm not persecuted. Just pointing out where you're getting facts wrong. I do appreciate, though, that you use the term "Jesus follower." There's a clear distinction between "following Jesus" and what has passed for "Christian." "Jesus followers" are not oppressors. |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 20:41:06 GMT
Christianity ended in the 4th century giving way to Romanized Christianity spread at the tip of a sword. Full Stop. Well, not really. There has been a common thread of "unRomanized Christianity" throughout history since. Not least of which was that entire eastern half of the known world which was never really part of the "Roman Church." |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 20:42:33 GMT
How about something more recent, NAZI Germany? Have you ever heard of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Confessing Church? |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 20:47:42 GMT
If you are an American Christian, you have no concept of what it is like to be persecuted.
This is true. Unlike Christians in parts of India, Africa, Vietnam, China, Uzbekistan... |
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Jul 3, 2020 21:19:07 GMT
If you think the explicitly atheistic communist states systematically imprisoned and martyred murdered Christians because of racial and ethnic reasons, you are seriously mistaken. Do you know what the penalty was for owning a Bible in Soviet Russia? The Crusades were absolutely not "purely religious." There were different reasons, from the "threat of Muslim invasion," for which there was some validity, to the fabrication of a common goal to generate a common unity among European proto-nations, which were continually at war with one another. At best, religion was the excuse. Politics was the reason. The Inquisition was also not "purely religious." It was also political. Look at the relationship between the Pope and the Spanish monarchy at the time. Why was it that the Inquisition was initiated by Spain and not the Pope? And as horrific as the Inquisition was, how many deaths resulted? The Imperial Expansion of England, Spain, Italy, and France...yeah, wealth driven. Religion had two roles in that: 1) Once more, an excuse to justify conquest--kind of a "manifest destiny" type of thing. 2) A reverse of that manifest destiny, as missionaries on the ground fought (with varying levels of success) against colonial domination. Why did slavery disappear? Would it have disappeared without "Christian intervention"? More history...before Constantine turned "Christianity into Christendom," slavery was condemned by the early Church. In more recent history, it took the likes of William Wilberforce to force the tide against the common acceptance of slavery--something he spent his life for...motivated by his Christianity. And no, I don't expect you to feel sorry for me. I'm not complaining. I'm not persecuted. Just pointing out where you're getting facts wrong. I do appreciate, though, that you use the term "Jesus follower." There's a clear distinction between "following Jesus" and what has passed for "Christian." "Jesus followers" are not oppressors. I'm willing to concede the point, now that I understand that you are not playing the victim card. I also appreciate that you know your history well, something I wish all Christians did. The attitude of those who are both Christian, and followers of Trump, is, I wasn't there, I didn't do it, so stop blaming me for it. Yet when it comes to the founders, they take every last bit of credit they can. The sheer hypocrisy of the fundamentalist Christian, in particular, is overwhelming at times. Freon |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Jul 3, 2020 22:17:56 GMT
I'm willing to concede the point, now that I understand that you are not playing the victim card. I also appreciate that you know your history well, something I wish all Christians did. The attitude of those who are both Christian, and followers of Trump, is, I wasn't there, I didn't do it, so stop blaming me for it. Yet when it comes to the founders, they take every last bit of credit they can. The sheer hypocrisy of the fundamentalist Christian, in particular, is overwhelming at times. Freon Oh, good Lord, that's frustrating, isn't it? I feel ya, there. |
|
bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
|
Post by bama beau on Jul 3, 2020 23:37:58 GMT
How about something more recent, NAZI Germany? Not one single Christian would ever accept the idea that NAZI Germany was related to Christianity. You post that like Christians loved it. But what about the millions of Christians that died to stop NAZI Germany? Most NAZIs self-identified as Christian. That is indisputable. That being said, your last point is well taken. There were so-called Christians on both sides of WWII. |
|
|
|
Post by william on Jul 4, 2020 14:11:07 GMT
That's just so not even true. Capitalism did that. Liberalism seeks to slow, correct or change what capitalism does in the name of fairness. Not fairness of opportunity, which is the only true fairness, but fairness of outcome which has nothing to do with being fair and everything to do with being in control. Okay so the problem is you can't separate capitalism from liberalism. Capitalism is the liberal form of economic organization. Yes, there have been people who have opposed (to various degrees) capitalism who were mistakenly called liberals, but that tends to be a conversation among extreme partisans who don't really have a good understanding of the words they are using. Its also true that some safety net is essential to a functioning capitalist order. Those who support that are hardly anti-capitalist, even if some of the more extreme among them might characterize it that way. Again, we are talking about people who don't tend to read or know much about these issues. I remember Trent Lott using the words capitalism and democracy interchangeably. |
|
|
|
Post by william on Jul 4, 2020 14:13:42 GMT
your religion is Liberalism which has killed more people than any virus in history has. I used to think I was a liberal, but this forum taught me I'm more of a libertarian. And people dying in the name of Jesus FAR outweigh any other religion I can think of. You are the progeny of intolerant killers who are slowly fading away to history. Freon Really? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 15:13:38 GMT
Okay so the problem is you can't separate capitalism from liberalism. Capitalism is the liberal form of economic organization. Yes, there have been people who have opposed (to various degrees) capitalism who were mistakenly called liberals, but that tends to be a conversation among extreme partisans who don't really have a good understanding of the words they are using. Its also true that some safety net is essential to a functioning capitalist order. Those who support that are hardly anti-capitalist, even if some of the more extreme among them might characterize it that way. Again, we are talking about people who don't tend to read or know much about these issues. I remember Trent Lott using the words capitalism and democracy interchangeably. I can see the point in that. They both seem inextricably bound to each other and the liberal order. I don't believe a social order without capitalism would remain democratic for very long and I also doubt that capitalism would last without democracy. |
|
|
|
Post by Fiddler on Jul 4, 2020 15:55:00 GMT
Christianity ended in the 4th century giving way to Romanized Christianity spread at the tip of a sword. Full Stop. Well, not really. There has been a common thread of "unRomanized Christianity" throughout history since. Not least of which was that entire eastern half of the known world which was never really part of the "Roman Church."
Is the Eastern church the influence seen in the U.S.? .. Or the world for that matter..
|
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Jul 4, 2020 16:05:30 GMT
Is the Eastern church the influence seen in the U.S.? .. Or the world for that matter..
There's a whole lot of influence by the Eastern Church outside of our general western awareness. Did you know that 26.2% of the population of Kazakhstan self-identify as "Christians," the vast majority of which would be Russian Orthodox? No, I didn't know that either. |
|
bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
|
Post by bama beau on Jul 4, 2020 17:01:28 GMT
I remember Trent Lott using the words capitalism and democracy interchangeably. I can see the point in that. They both seem inextricably bound to each other and the liberal order. I don't believe a social order without capitalism would remain democratic for very long and I also doubt that capitalism would last without democracy. I see the natural economic partner of democracy as being free enterprise rather than capitalism. What say you? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 17:22:51 GMT
I can see the point in that. They both seem inextricably bound to each other and the liberal order. I don't believe a social order without capitalism would remain democratic for very long and I also doubt that capitalism would last without democracy. I see the natural economic partner of democracy as being free enterprise rather than capitalism. What say you? I would agree. I am probably speaking too broadly about capitalism. Its free enterprise, freed markets and trade-tested betterment that I am trying to highlight and defend, and all too often these arguments are weaponized to defend the illiberal aspects of actually existing capitalism. |
|
