Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Aug 24, 2023 22:21:52 GMT
I'm not gonna go scrounging around in another thread to find your defintion. If you can't summarize it here, so be it. I'm done with ya.
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 25, 2023 1:17:54 GMT
I'm not gonna go scrounging around in another thread to find your defintion. If you can't summarize it here, so be it. I'm done with ya.
The second link: it's RIGHT. THERE. Also, why do we have circle the same hill over and over again? We clarify what "fascism" means, then two months later, it's "everyone I hate is a fascist!" It's puerile. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2023 14:11:34 GMT
I'm not gonna go scrounging around in another thread to find your defintion. If you can't summarize it here, so be it. I'm done with ya.
The second link: it's RIGHT. THERE. Also, why do we have circle the same hill over and over again? We clarify what "fascism" means, then two months later, it's "everyone I hate is a fascist!" It's puerile. Liberals are like white bass. White bass are supposedly the fish that just cant learn. You catch one on a lure, it surely should think shiny metal things are not food. Don't eat it. Then, you throw it back and five minutes later it is like "look, shiney metal thing! Yummy!" |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 25, 2023 15:54:39 GMT
Let me be clear that I do NOT look at Fascism as purely a Donald thing. It's everyone who supported/supports his fascist ideology. Even in this very thread, I made that accusation. Again, that's why I like that link I post. It is clear (at least to me) about not just what he sells, but how he sells it, and who is buying. And it tells me that fascism (as I define it) is supported by a good 25% of the Republican party, though it has been given different names, so they either do not know they are fascist, or they actually feel more PATRIOTIC for their support. It's really sick and twisted. But autocratic and authoritarian do not fully describe the mechanisms of the autocracy and authoritarianism. It's the HOW of him being autocratic and authoritarian, that makes him fascist. I see fascism as a specific flavor of those two terms. They are too vague, on their own, and do not convey the insidiousness of the actual implementation. And I think it critical that we expose that implementation, else how can we guard against it by future generations. Freon Spent a little more time thinking about this last night: Trump in comparison to Hitler and Mussolini and in the context of the American political system.
Trump doesn't seem to have the same characteristics as either Hitler or Mussolini and lacks a lot of what they had which allowed them to rise to power. Trump doesn't really have an ideology. Been saying this for years now, but the only consistent position he has is on trade. Outside of that he's kind of all over the place (even in terms of party: Democrat, Republican, Reform). He doesn't have a party organization dedicated to that ideology (you point about above that it might be 1/4 of the GOP). No paramilitary organization. Could probably go on, but I would need to go back into my library and refresh myself on fascism, Hitler and Mussolini.
And then the American political context. Trump may have autocratic tendencies, but what radical or revolutionary fascist policies did he implement? There wasn't a party dedicated to that as pointed out above. His administration was full of GOP establishment officials, not radicals. And he had a House that was controlled by the opposing party.
Any autocratic tendencies would've been expressed through the imperial presidency IMO, so through military adventurism (which we saw), executive orders, COVID mandates, and more. But all of which were urged on by the the usual suspects who have been working for various Republican administrations for years. Even some of the more "radical" things Trump suggested (pulling out of NATO comes to mind) were neither serious nor something that his administration was going to allow.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 25, 2023 16:06:55 GMT
Let me be clear that I do NOT look at Fascism as purely a Donald thing. It's everyone who supported/supports his fascist ideology. Even in this very thread, I made that accusation. Again, that's why I like that link I post. It is clear (at least to me) about not just what he sells, but how he sells it, and who is buying. And it tells me that fascism (as I define it) is supported by a good 25% of the Republican party, though it has been given different names, so they either do not know they are fascist, or they actually feel more PATRIOTIC for their support. It's really sick and twisted. But autocratic and authoritarian do not fully describe the mechanisms of the autocracy and authoritarianism. It's the HOW of him being autocratic and authoritarian, that makes him fascist. I see fascism as a specific flavor of those two terms. They are too vague, on their own, and do not convey the insidiousness of the actual implementation. And I think it critical that we expose that implementation, else how can we guard against it by future generations. Freon Spent a little more time thinking about this last night: Trump in comparison to Hitler and Mussolini and in the context of the American political system.
Trump doesn't seem to have the same characteristics as either Hitler or Mussolini and lacks a lot of what they had which allowed them to rise to power. Trump doesn't really have an ideology. Been saying this for years now, but the only consistent position he has is on trade. Outside of that he's kind of all over the place (even in terms of party: Democrat, Republican, Reform). He doesn't have a party organization dedicated to that ideology (you point about above that it might be 1/4 of the GOP). No paramilitary organization. Could probably go on, but I would need to go back into my library and refresh myself on fascism, Hitler and Mussolini.
And then the American political context. Trump may have autocratic tendencies, but what radical or revolutionary fascist policies did he implement? There wasn't a party dedicated to that as pointed out above. His administration was full of GOP establishment officials, not radicals. And he had a House that was controlled by the opposing party.
Any autocratic tendencies would've been expressed through the imperial presidency IMO, so through military adventurism (which we saw), executive orders, COVID mandates, and more. But all of which were urged on by the the usual suspects who have been working for various Republican administrations for years. Even some of the more "radical" things Trump suggested (pulling out of NATO comes to mind) were neither serious nor something that his administration was going to allow.
First off, great break-down. Well thought out and supported. Wish more in here would do this. The comparison with those two fascist leaders is fair, EXCEPT when it comes to timing. To compare Donald to what they became, is not accurate. Instead, we should look at what they were BEFORE they ultimately gained the power to become notorious. What tactics did they use to convince the public to give them that power? Also, in both of their cases, the government they were coming from, was the context. And neither post-WWI Germany nor Italy, looked ANYTHING like what America looks like today. So the same strategies they leveraged to convince those populations, would be different than what would be used now. Yet interestingly, even there, I find them similar. Looked through these lenses, do you still contend no similarity? I will agree that Donald has no ideology. Well...except himself. ANYTHING to promote himself. It's seriously creepy. And so blatantly obviously phony, it is hard to accept that so many are unable to see through it. Yet I've channeled that same personality in here, many times, and EVERY time, the same people flock back, encouraging me to do it more. It's just the nature of certain people, and that is what he's tapped into. Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 25, 2023 16:52:21 GMT
The comparison with those two fascist leaders is fair, EXCEPT when it comes to timing. To compare Donald to what they became, is not accurate. Instead, we should look at what they were BEFORE they ultimately gained the power to become notorious. What tactics did they use to convince the public to give them that power? Even before they came to power, they had an ideology and a program. Hitler laid it out in Mein Kampf. Mussolini and the Black Shirts had a well defined program in 1919. Trump really had nothing like that; he had a few things that he consistently pushed, but was otherwise inconsistent (healthcare comes to mind).
Before they came to power, you also saw political violence, and with Mussolini, the successful March on Rome. Hitler and Mussolini had different paths to power. The Nazis were actually pretty successful in parliamentary elections. To cite Paxton again: "The growth of the Nazi vote from the ninth party in Germany in 1928 to the first in 1932 showed how successfully Hitler and his strategists profited from the discredit of the traditional parties by devising new electoral techniques and directing appeals to specific constituencies." ( The Anatomy of Fascism) And that was partly through political violence: "Violence—selective violence against 'antinational' enemies who were perceived by many Germans as outside the fold—helped win the votes that allowed Hitler to pretend that he was working for power by legal means." But Trump ran at the head of a traditional party; the difference being that Trump was a more populist candidate and was able to take advantage of dissatisfaction at that party not implementing the agenda it had touted for years. He won an election through legal means and without resorting to political violence. Trump was also not able to consolidate gains for his party (the GOP lost 6 seats in 2016 and lost control of the House in 2018). He also was unsuccessful at remaining in power by any means.
Not really. As we discuss this, I'm trying to refamiliarize myself with things I have previously read, but just don't see Trump as a fascist. Outside of trade policy, I'm not even sure how much of what he says he actually believes.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 25, 2023 17:35:03 GMT
The comparison with those two fascist leaders is fair, EXCEPT when it comes to timing. To compare Donald to what they became, is not accurate. Instead, we should look at what they were BEFORE they ultimately gained the power to become notorious. What tactics did they use to convince the public to give them that power? Even before they came to power, they had an ideology and a program. Hitler laid it out in Mein Kampf. Mussolini and the Black Shirts had a well defined program in 1919. Trump really had nothing like that; he had a few things that he consistently pushed, but was otherwise inconsistent (healthcare comes to mind).
Before they came to power, you also saw political violence, and with Mussolini, the successful March on Rome. Hitler and Mussolini had different paths to power. The Nazis were actually pretty successful in parliamentary elections. To cite Paxton again: "The growth of the Nazi vote from the ninth party in Germany in 1928 to the first in 1932 showed how successfully Hitler and his strategists profited from the discredit of the traditional parties by devising new electoral techniques and directing appeals to specific constituencies." ( The Anatomy of Fascism) And that was partly through political violence: "Violence—selective violence against 'antinational' enemies who were perceived by many Germans as outside the fold—helped win the votes that allowed Hitler to pretend that he was working for power by legal means." But Trump ran at the head of a traditional party; the difference being that Trump was a more populist candidate and was able to take advantage of dissatisfaction at that party not implementing the agenda it had touted for years. He won an election through legal means and without resorting to political violence. Trump was also not able to consolidate gains for his party (the GOP lost 6 seats in 2016 and lost control of the House in 2018). He also was unsuccessful at remaining in power by any means.
Not really. As we discuss this, I'm trying to refamiliarize myself with things I have previously read, but just don't see Trump as a fascist. Outside of trade policy, I'm not even sure how much of what he says he actually believes.
So you see no parallel? I'm the only one who can solve all your problems? This part of our country is the enemy? Patriotism == nationalism? Goodness == Christianity? No similarities at all? And Mein Kampf was after he was imprisoned. What about before that? Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 25, 2023 17:56:21 GMT
So you see no parallel? I'm the only one who can solve all your problems? This part of our country is the enemy? Patriotism == nationalism? Goodness == Christianity? Not really. And I think all of these are a stretch. Did Trump equate goodness with Christianity? (Certainly not in his personal life). And what is the Oscar Wilde quote about patriotism? "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"? I think most patriots are nationalists and always have been; don't see anything special there regarding Trump, who in business and personal life is definitely more cosmopolitan.
What do you mean before that? We've gone from before he was in power to now before he was imprisoned. Not sure what difference that makes, especially since he was imprisoned for his use of political violence (the putsch), and the Nazi Party was not a successful party at that time. It was only well after the putsch that the Nazis started having any success in electoral politics. |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 25, 2023 18:06:30 GMT
So you see no parallel? I'm the only one who can solve all your problems? This part of our country is the enemy? Patriotism == nationalism? Goodness == Christianity? Not really. And I think all of these are a stretch. Did Trump equate goodness with Christianity? (Certainly not in his personal life). And what is the Oscar Wilde quote about patriotism? "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"? I think most patriots are nationalists and always have been; don't see anything special there regarding Trump, who in business and personal life is definitely more cosmopolitan.
What do you mean before that? We've gone from before he was in power to now before he was imprisoned. Not sure what difference that makes, especially since he was imprisoned for his use of political violence (the putsch), and the Nazi Party was not a successful party at that time. It was only well after the putsch that the Nazis started having any success in electoral politics. To me, you are equating his personal views, to the things he says and does to get what he wants. I do not disagree that on a personal level, he doesn't believe any of it. He's a complete scam-artist, who will do anything, say anything, break any law, defy morality, civility, and integrity, as long as in the end, he obtains his desire. So maybe that is where we are having a disagreement. I am saying he USES Fascism, and its strategies, to get what he wants, and what he wants, is authoritarianism, therefore, he is a Fascist. Whereas maybe you are saying that he actually HAS all those Fascist views he sells, and since he does not, we cannot call him one. Is this where we are having issue? Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 25, 2023 19:02:58 GMT
To me, you are equating his personal views, to the things he says and does to get what he wants. I do not disagree that on a personal level, he doesn't believe any of it. He's a complete scam-artist, who will do anything, say anything, break any law, defy morality, civility, and integrity, as long as in the end, he obtains his desire. So maybe that is where we are having a disagreement. I am saying he USES Fascism, and its strategies, to get what he wants, and what he wants, is authoritarianism, therefore, he is a Fascist. Whereas maybe you are saying that he actually HAS all those Fascist views he sells, and since he does not, we cannot call him one. Is this where we are having issue? Freon Which strategies though? Political violence? Paramilitary organizations? An ideological platform? Creating a third party to attack establishment parties?
I know some people would point to January 6 as political violence, but Mussolini and Hitler used sustained political violence to achieve their ends.
You look at how Hitler and Mussolini rose to power, and I don't see any of that with Trump, even if he has autocratic tendencies.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 25, 2023 19:07:30 GMT
To me, you are equating his personal views, to the things he says and does to get what he wants. I do not disagree that on a personal level, he doesn't believe any of it. He's a complete scam-artist, who will do anything, say anything, break any law, defy morality, civility, and integrity, as long as in the end, he obtains his desire. So maybe that is where we are having a disagreement. I am saying he USES Fascism, and its strategies, to get what he wants, and what he wants, is authoritarianism, therefore, he is a Fascist. Whereas maybe you are saying that he actually HAS all those Fascist views he sells, and since he does not, we cannot call him one. Is this where we are having issue? Freon Which strategies though? Political violence? Paramilitary organizations? An ideological platform? Creating a third party to attack establishment parties?
I know some people would point to January 6 as political violence, but Mussolini and Hitler used sustained political violence to achieve their ends.
You look at how Hitler and Mussolini rose to power, and I don't see any of that with Trump, even if he has autocratic tendencies.
It is his strategies for engaging his base. The rhetoric he uses. Encouraging them to violence. Selling the idea that if you are not a Christian Nationalist, you are not an American. When I hear your disagreement with me, I hear that because he did not perform the exact actions of those other leaders, he therefore cannot be called a Fascist, yet WHY they performed what they did, is identical (to me) to the reasons he does. He taps into the same psyche, using the same psychology, to achieve similar ends. So I cannot merely call him authoritarian. It's not specific enough. If you don't like fascist, I'm willing to entertain another word, but my vernacular options are limited in this area. Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 25, 2023 20:37:27 GMT
It is his strategies for engaging his base. The rhetoric he uses. Encouraging them to violence. Selling the idea that if you are not a Christian Nationalist, you are not an American. When I hear your disagreement with me, I hear that because he did not perform the exact actions of those other leaders, he therefore cannot be called a Fascist, yet WHY they performed what they did, is identical (to me) to the reasons he does. He taps into the same psyche, using the same psychology, to achieve similar ends. So I cannot merely call him authoritarian. It's not specific enough. If you don't like fascist, I'm willing to entertain another word, but my vernacular options are limited in this area. Freon If you look at Hitler and Mussolini, their aims were very much about obtaining power (I suspect Trump liked the idea of being President, more than he liked the responsibility and power of the office). And their incitement to violence was very explicit. I wouldn't even call it incitement; it was well planned and organized to target specific groups. But lots of ideologies have encouraged violence (communism, anarchism, radical liberalism); it's who that violence targets that generally sets each apart.
I'll admit to not paying close attention to Trump's rhetoric since 2016, so I'm going to need some examples of him encouraging violence and selling the idea that if you're not a Christian nationalist, you're not an American. I don't recall him doing much of either during the 2016 primary.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Aug 25, 2023 20:41:47 GMT
No matter how you look at it, The Donald was a disastrous US president.
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demos
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Post by demos on Sept 20, 2023 18:45:41 GMT
Lol.
(Saw that and it made me think of this thread) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 19:15:27 GMT
Even before they came to power, they had an ideology and a program. Hitler laid it out in Mein Kampf. Mussolini and the Black Shirts had a well defined program in 1919. Trump really had nothing like that; he had a few things that he consistently pushed, but was otherwise inconsistent (healthcare comes to mind).
This is the thing I'm surprised so many people (not you) overlook.
Trump's "Mein Kampf" ... was listening to decades of callers calling in on talk radio programs. This wasn't a secret. This was widely reported on. Trump paid people to listen to all of these talk radio programs and give him reports on what people were concerned about.
Trump then tried to harness those concerns into his own ... limited ideology as you and I have both discussed before. His views on trade, and more broadly, on the "global neoliberal order" that has developed in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse for the benefit of the well connected.
And that's the thing that so startled "Democrats." And freaked out the federal bureaucracy. His views on trade and ... more broadly ... on the "global neoliberal order" that has developed in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse for the benefit of the well connected ... is the view of "Occupy Wall Street." And the source of a whole lot of populist energy on the left.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 19:19:30 GMT
Also...that "global neoliberal world order" that developed in the post Soviet Union era to the benefit of the well connected is collapsing.
And it ain't cuz of Donald Trump.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Sept 20, 2023 19:31:24 GMT
Even before they came to power, they had an ideology and a program. Hitler laid it out in Mein Kampf. Mussolini and the Black Shirts had a well defined program in 1919. Trump really had nothing like that; he had a few things that he consistently pushed, but was otherwise inconsistent (healthcare comes to mind).
This is the thing I'm surprised so many people (not you) overlook.
Trump's "Mein Kampf" ... was listening to decades of callers calling in on talk radio programs. This wasn't a secret. This was widely reported on. Trump paid people to listen to all of these talk radio programs and give him reports on what people were concerned about.
Trump then tried to harness those concerns into his own ... limited ideology as you and I have both discussed before. His views on trade, and more broadly, on the "global neoliberal order" that has developed in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse for the benefit of the well connected.
And that's the thing that so startled "Democrats." And freaked out the federal bureaucracy. His views on trade and ... more broadly ... on the "global neoliberal order" that has developed in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse for the benefit of the well connected ... is the view of "Occupy Wall Street." And the source of a whole lot of populist energy on the left.
So....
What, pray tell, is your point?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2023 19:36:20 GMT
This is the thing I'm surprised so many people (not you) overlook.
Trump's "Mein Kampf" ... was listening to decades of callers calling in on talk radio programs. This wasn't a secret. This was widely reported on. Trump paid people to listen to all of these talk radio programs and give him reports on what people were concerned about.
Trump then tried to harness those concerns into his own ... limited ideology as you and I have both discussed before. His views on trade, and more broadly, on the "global neoliberal order" that has developed in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse for the benefit of the well connected.
And that's the thing that so startled "Democrats." And freaked out the federal bureaucracy. His views on trade and ... more broadly ... on the "global neoliberal order" that has developed in the wake of the Soviet Union's collapse for the benefit of the well connected ... is the view of "Occupy Wall Street." And the source of a whole lot of populist energy on the left.
So....
What, pray tell, is your point?
They aren't attacking Trump.
They are attacking the "working class" of America.
Because he is not their leader he is their mascot.
It's only been my point for 7 years now Odysseuse. Everything the "Establocrats" have done in response to Trump has made things worse.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Sept 20, 2023 19:41:39 GMT
So....
What, pray tell, is your point?
They aren't attacking Trump.
They are attacking the "working class" of America.
Because he is not their leader he is their mascot.
It's only been my point for 7 years now Odysseuse. Everything the "Establocrats" have done in response to Trump has made things worse.
You make little to no sense.
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petep
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Post by petep on Sept 20, 2023 19:45:13 GMT
If he is he’d be the first one in world history to support lower taxes, favors and expands civilian gun rights, favors states rights, favors free speech / speaks out against the press, pushes small business over corporate America,
Sure ok. He’s the first fascist that does all these things. Sure he is.
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