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Post by freonbale on Aug 24, 2023 18:17:10 GMT
I agree. There is consistency in this interaction. But you cannot point out a weakness, if you did not even understand the argument. Freon The weakness has already been pointed out. You're checklist is so superficial it can be applied to pretty much anyone or any state. Narrow the time frame, concentrate it as much as you want, it's still so superficial that it's meaningless.
And you lack the knowledge or ability to strengthen your argument.
I agree it is a simplified list, and I chose it intentionally because we do not have very educated people who are reading it. But the argument you are making it is that it is SO simplified, as to be applicable to any actions by any leaders at any time. To this I disagree. And my key point, the one you may have just recently begun to acknowledge, is that those items listed must be concentrated into one leadership posture. In that sense, Donald hits most of them. What other single leaders, or parties, in our past would you say did as well? And then my next question would be if you find one, does that make the whole country Fascist? I would say no. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 24, 2023 18:18:29 GMT
Finally, someone honest about this, though I wonder if intentional. 'At times'. That's the piece you righties aren't acknowledging. I am not saying that pieces of fascism have not been implemented by other groups. They have. But separated by decades, by different leaders, by different parties. What makes a fascist is the CONCENTRATED implementation, the implementation during a relatively short time (few years, vs decades, centuries, etc) of all, or most, of those check-boxed qualifications in the link in my sig. To look at the country in aggregate, for instance, over 200 years, and say because pieces of fascism occurred here or there, that the whole country can be described as fascist, is illogical and silly. Freon So fascism cannot be implemented long-term? Wow. Is that really what you interpreted from my post? Do you REALLY think I would say that? Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 18:24:55 GMT
So fascism cannot be implemented long-term?
Did Freon say that?
"What makes a fascist is the CONCENTRATED implementation, the implementation during a relatively short time (few years, vs decades, centuries, etc) of all, or most, of those check-boxed qualifications in the link in my sig." This seems to indicate that fascism cannot "creep up on you." It must be implemented "during a relatively short time," else it doesn't qualify as "fascism." That doesn't sound right to me. You? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 18:25:47 GMT
So fascism cannot be implemented long-term? Wow. Is that really what you interpreted from my post? Do you REALLY think I would say that? Freon You're welcome to clarify. There must be more of a distinction between monarchy and fascism than how long it takes to implement it. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Aug 24, 2023 18:27:05 GMT
Bottom line: Donald Trump is a fascist.
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 18:30:24 GMT
The weakness has already been pointed out. You're checklist is so superficial it can be applied to pretty much anyone or any state. Narrow the time frame, concentrate it as much as you want, it's still so superficial that it's meaningless.
And you lack the knowledge or ability to strengthen your argument.
I agree it is a simplified list, and I chose it intentionally because we do not have very educated people who are reading it. But the argument you are making it is that it is SO simplified, as to be applicable to any actions by any leaders at any time. To this I disagree. And my key point, the one you may have just recently begun to acknowledge, is that those items listed must be concentrated into one leadership posture. In that sense, Donald hits most of them. What other single leaders, or parties, in our past would you say did as well? And then my next question would be if you find one, does that make the whole country Fascist? I would say no. Freon What do you mean by "leadership posture"? I mean, the historical examples of fascism are obvious: Hitler, Franco, Mussolini. Is Trump more like these than he would be any other despot or narcissistic monarch? In what ways? |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 24, 2023 18:40:12 GMT
I agree it is a simplified list, and I chose it intentionally because we do not have very educated people who are reading it. But the argument you are making it is that it is SO simplified, as to be applicable to any actions by any leaders at any time. To this I disagree. You can disagree all you want, but it's an easy game to play and show that it can be done.
Want to look at Obama using this check list?
Did Obama make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and flags? Pretty sure the answer to this is yes (it's pretty much standard fare for any U.S. president). Did Obama look the other way, approve of torture, approve of long incarcerations, and/or approve of executions and assassinations? Yes. Did Obama identify enemies as a unifying cause? Well, terrorists are on that list. Did Obama give the military "a disproportionate amount of government funding"? Yes (him and basically every President since the Cold War). Did Obama use fear as motivational tool with regard to national security? Terrorists again.
Did Obama use religious messages and terminology? Yes. Was there a mutually beneficial business and government relationship during Obama's Presidency? Yes (again something is pretty basic in U.S. government). Cronyism during Obama's administration? Kinda goes with the territory.
There were some allegations regarding attacks on speech in higher education, though some probably see what his administration was doing differently.
Areas where Obama's presidency didn't really match up were "Widespread sexism", controlled mass media, or suppressing labor unions. And we can rule out election fraud IMO.
Using this checklist, Obama looks pretty fascist over an 8 year period; he's hitting most of the check boxes.
Was Obama a fascist? No, he was not. But if all you want to do is check some boxes, you can start making it look that way, especially if you're already predisposed to dislike him and his policies.
All of which goes to back my point which is that this list is meaningless. It's superficial and devoid of any context.
If you want to argue that Trump is a fascist, you're gonna need to come up with a better argument than a checklist.
The thing is we can apply this checklist to the U.S. government. Pick any time period since WW2 that you want.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Aug 24, 2023 18:57:02 GMT
Demos has a weird and extremely inaccurate perception of events.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 24, 2023 19:50:40 GMT
Wow. Is that really what you interpreted from my post? Do you REALLY think I would say that? Freon You're welcome to clarify. There must be more of a distinction between monarchy and fascism than how long it takes to implement it. I am truly baffled at this response, not just from you, but so many others here. Based on 'your' responses (meaning all those who questioned my position), if ANY fascist doctrine is implemented at any time in a country's history, that country (or leader, or whatever) is Fascist. Which would mean that Germany, and not just NAZI Germany, is a fascist country. Even right now. That's just crazy, to me. Freon |
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thor
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Post by thor on Aug 24, 2023 19:52:47 GMT
You're welcome to clarify. There must be more of a distinction between monarchy and fascism than how long it takes to implement it. I am truly baffled at this response, not just from you, but so many others here. Based on 'your' responses (meaning all those who questioned my position), if ANY fascist doctrine is implemented at any time in a country's history, that country (or leader, or whatever) is Fascist. Which would mean that Germany, and not just NAZI Germany, is a fascist country. Even right now. That's just crazy, to me. Freon Their feelings are involved. It's what they do when the Cog-Diss becomes too much. |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 24, 2023 19:52:47 GMT
I agree it is a simplified list, and I chose it intentionally because we do not have very educated people who are reading it. But the argument you are making it is that it is SO simplified, as to be applicable to any actions by any leaders at any time. To this I disagree. And my key point, the one you may have just recently begun to acknowledge, is that those items listed must be concentrated into one leadership posture. In that sense, Donald hits most of them. What other single leaders, or parties, in our past would you say did as well? And then my next question would be if you find one, does that make the whole country Fascist? I would say no. Freon What do you mean by "leadership posture"? I mean, the historical examples of fascism are obvious: Hitler, Franco, Mussolini. Is Trump more like these than he would be any other despot or narcissistic monarch? In what ways? Wrong question. Is he more like them, then leaders who were NOT fascist. Yes. Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 24, 2023 19:57:54 GMT
Based on 'your' responses (meaning all those who questioned my position), if ANY fascist doctrine is implemented at any time in a country's history, that country (or leader, or whatever) is Fascist. That's not what everyone who has responded to has suggested.
In fact, retroactively trying to apply fascism to states and regimes prior to the 20th Century would be ahistorical, which is why I specifically mentioned the Cold War and post-9/11 in my responses to you and most recently said pick any time post WW2.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 24, 2023 19:58:49 GMT
I agree it is a simplified list, and I chose it intentionally because we do not have very educated people who are reading it. But the argument you are making it is that it is SO simplified, as to be applicable to any actions by any leaders at any time. To this I disagree. You can disagree all you want, but it's an easy game to play and show that it can be done.
Want to look at Obama using this check list?
Did Obama make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and flags? Pretty sure the answer to this is yes (it's pretty much standard fare for any U.S. president). Did Obama look the other way, approve of torture, approve of long incarcerations, and/or approve of executions and assassinations? Yes. Did Obama identify enemies as a unifying cause? Well, terrorists are on that list. Did Obama give the military "a disproportionate amount of government funding"? Yes (him and basically every President since the Cold War). Did Obama use fear as motivational tool with regard to national security? Terrorists again.
Did Obama use religious messages and terminology? Yes. Was there a mutually beneficial business and government relationship during Obama's Presidency? Yes (again something is pretty basic in U.S. government). Cronyism during Obama's administration? Kinda goes with the territory.
There were some allegations regarding attacks on speech in higher education, though some probably see what his administration was doing differently.
Areas where Obama's presidency didn't really match up were "Widespread sexism", controlled mass media, or suppressing labor unions. And we can rule out election fraud IMO.
Using this checklist, Obama looks pretty fascist over an 8 year period; he's hitting most of the check boxes.
Was Obama a fascist? No, he was not. But if all you want to do is check some boxes, you can start making it look that way, especially if you're already predisposed to dislike him and his policies.
All of which goes to back my point which is that this list is meaningless. It's superficial and devoid of any context.
If you want to argue that Trump is a fascist, you're gonna need to come up with a better argument than a checklist.
The thing is we can apply this checklist to the U.S. government. Pick any time period since WW2 that you want.
Would you agree that the checklist I provided DOES argue that Hitler was a Fascist? Obviously, I think so. Then, is not the context already implied? WHY does Donald hit so many of those checkboxes? How far did he go in each of them? What were the consequences of them? That's the context. And while I agree that you can argue Obama hit them as well, those three questions would be answered VERY differently, and would result in a conclusion that Obama was not fascist. It is really annoying that you people require every little detail explained to you, that I cannot simply point you in a direction, and have you fill in the obvious gaps. For the far righties, I get that, but you? You surprise me. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 24, 2023 20:03:38 GMT
Based on 'your' responses (meaning all those who questioned my position), if ANY fascist doctrine is implemented at any time in a country's history, that country (or leader, or whatever) is Fascist. That's not what everyone who has responded to has suggested.
In fact, retroactively trying to apply fascism to states and regimes prior to the 20th Century would be ahistorical, which is why I specifically mentioned the Cold War and post-9/11 in my responses to you and most recently said pick any time post WW2.
Why, because that term did not exist? Freon |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Aug 24, 2023 20:07:57 GMT
Militarism takes many forms.
Used to be that the commies were the most militaristic nations on earth. Nowadays, their numbers are greatly reduced and even China is no longer so militaristic. For example, when was the last time they invaded another nation?
Which is not to say that Western nations and their allies cannot be militaristic as well.
And every nation that wishes to exist in humanity needs some militarism to survive. Sad, but true.
So it's a sliding scale, and that scale is often heavily influenced by one's political inclinations.
Tiresome, I know, but WTF.
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 24, 2023 20:18:19 GMT
Would you agree that the checklist I provided DOES argue that Hitler was a Fascist? Obviously, I think so. Can it be used to argue Hitler was a fascist? Sure, but I don't think there's any debate about whether or not he was. Is there?
The point is that you can use it to argue lots of people are fascists. Not really, and not what I meant when I said it was devoid of context. For example, how did Mussolini and Hitler use religion? It wasn't just a common use of religious terminology and messaging. The Nazis - at least some of them (Himmler in particular) - were busy creating an entire mythology.
Also, missing the context of the U.S. political system.
Well, make that argument. How much farther did he go on the supremacy of the military? I'd suggest no farther than any other president in modern history. What about sexism? One of those is about suppression of homosexuality, but Trump appointed Richard Grennell to very high profile positions in his administration, including being the first openly gay person appointed to a Cabinet level position.
There's lot of things I don't like about Trump. Some of them are the same things I didn't like about previous presidents as well. But fascist? Gonna need a stronger argument here.
Exactly my point. This can't just be a superficial claim. Gonna need some meat.
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 20:18:27 GMT
You're welcome to clarify. There must be more of a distinction between monarchy and fascism than how long it takes to implement it. I am truly baffled at this response, not just from you, but so many others here. Based on 'your' responses (meaning all those who questioned my position), if ANY fascist doctrine is implemented at any time in a country's history, that country (or leader, or whatever) is Fascist. Which would mean that Germany, and not just NAZI Germany, is a fascist country. Even right now. That's just crazy, to me. Freon Well, my point is that this "list" is simplistic. If you can't distinguish between monarchy and fascism according to the checklist, then the checklist is not sufficient to describe fascism. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 20:19:09 GMT
What do you mean by "leadership posture"? I mean, the historical examples of fascism are obvious: Hitler, Franco, Mussolini. Is Trump more like these than he would be any other despot or narcissistic monarch? In what ways? Wrong question. Is he more like them, then leaders who were NOT fascist. Yes. Freon Better. But "like fascists" (in certain areas) does not make one a fascist. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 20:19:51 GMT
I am truly baffled at this response, not just from you, but so many others here. Based on 'your' responses (meaning all those who questioned my position), if ANY fascist doctrine is implemented at any time in a country's history, that country (or leader, or whatever) is Fascist. Which would mean that Germany, and not just NAZI Germany, is a fascist country. Even right now. That's just crazy, to me. Freon Their feelings are involved. It's what they do when the Cog-Diss becomes too much. Or maybe there's the pursuit of a level of precision in the conversation that goes beyond "someone I don't like must be a fascist." |
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Post by Mercy for All on Aug 24, 2023 20:21:46 GMT
Militarism takes many forms.
Used to be that the commies were the most militaristic nations on earth. Nowadays, their numbers are greatly reduced and even China is no longer so militaristic. For example, when was the last time they invaded another nation?
Which is not to say that Western nations and their allies cannot be militaristic as well.
And every nation that wishes to exist in humanity needs some militarism to survive. Sad, but true.
So it's a sliding scale, and that scale is often heavily influenced by one's political inclinations.
Tiresome, I know, but WTF.
Agreed. Thus, militarism is not enough to qualify a government as fascist. Obviously the checklist doesn't only list militarism. But again, if a monarchical and fascist government are indistinguishable according to said checklist, then the checklist is not sufficient to identify fascism. |
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