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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2023 20:07:48 GMT
So homosexuals are kinda screwed then. Because not even Jesus has experienced that temptation. Why would they be screwed? You are a victim to your own continued faulty premise here that Jesus has to have had experienced literally ALL and EVERY possible type and iteration of sin... I guess all women are screwed too, because Jesus was never faced with the temptation to abort a child... Well, if it were something I was tempted with, I would conclude there was no hope for me. Because not even Jesus struggled with that (even though scripture says he was tempted in "all things" that we are. So it seems like it's a "special kind of sin or struggle." And certainly many Christians treat it that way. |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 14, 2023 20:31:36 GMT
Why would they be screwed? You are a victim to your own continued faulty premise here that Jesus has to have had experienced literally ALL and EVERY possible type and iteration of sin... I guess all women are screwed too, because Jesus was never faced with the temptation to abort a child... Well, if it were something I was tempted with, I would conclude there was no hope for me. Because not even Jesus struggled with that (even though scripture says he was tempted in "all things" that we are. So it seems like it's a "special kind of sin or struggle." And certainly many Christians treat it that way. So, again, you think women are screwed? Should they feel there is no hope for them because Jesus was a man and could not have possibly gone through the same exact sinful temptations they did? Seriously, your argument is premised of an absurd extreme that you are building based on very little here. This is not how sound doctrine is made at all, and your insistence on doing so is baffling to me. If you are going to latch on to "all things" then you need to include "as we are" because none of us are tempted in every possible way that could ever exist either. The point here is that we all live a life of sin and struggle with temptation, so did Jesus (minus the sin), he overcame this to sacrifice himself for us. But your message to women is that, oh well, too bad for you, Jesus was never tempted with an abortion, so I guess you shouldn't find any hope here at all. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2023 20:35:58 GMT
Well, if it were something I was tempted with, I would conclude there was no hope for me. Because not even Jesus struggled with that (even though scripture says he was tempted in "all things" that we are. So it seems like it's a "special kind of sin or struggle." And certainly many Christians treat it that way. So, again, you think women are screwed? Should they feel there is no hope for them because Jesus was a man and could not have possibly gone through the same exact sinful temptations they did? Seriously, your argument is premised of an absurd extreme that you are building based on very little here. This is not how sound doctrine is made at all, and your insistence on doing so is baffling to me. If you are going to latch on to "all things" then you need to include "as we are" because none of us are tempted in every possible way that could ever exist either. The point here is that we all live a life of sin and struggle with temptation, so did Jesus (minus the sin), he overcame this to sacrifice himself for us. But your message to women is that, oh well, too bad for you, Jesus was never tempted with an abortion, so I guess you shouldn't find any hope here at all. Not sure that "abortion" is a distinct sin from "murder" (?), but you keep saying "as we are," implying that homosexuals are simply "not as us." Which is the same problem I've described. Here's a question...whether or not Jesus actually experienced homosexuality, are you arguing that he could not have? |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 14, 2023 23:29:56 GMT
So, again, you think women are screwed? Should they feel there is no hope for them because Jesus was a man and could not have possibly gone through the same exact sinful temptations they did? Seriously, your argument is premised of an absurd extreme that you are building based on very little here. This is not how sound doctrine is made at all, and your insistence on doing so is baffling to me. If you are going to latch on to "all things" then you need to include "as we are" because none of us are tempted in every possible way that could ever exist either. The point here is that we all live a life of sin and struggle with temptation, so did Jesus (minus the sin), he overcame this to sacrifice himself for us. But your message to women is that, oh well, too bad for you, Jesus was never tempted with an abortion, so I guess you shouldn't find any hope here at all. Not sure that "abortion" is a distinct sin from "murder" (?), but you keep saying "as we are," implying that homosexuals are simply "not as us." Which is the same problem I've described. Here's a question...whether or not Jesus actually experienced homosexuality, are you arguing that he could not have? Is homosexual lust really that distinct from any other lustful desires outside of marriage between a man and woman? I’m not implying or saying that homosexuals are not “not as us”, I’m saying that your premise that Jesus must have somehow experienced literally every sin temptation possible is silly, as that is not what the average person experiences at all. Jesus could not sin, as he was man, he was still also the son of God. You might as well have asked if Jesus could experience being a thief, or adulterer etc… |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 0:44:02 GMT
Not sure that "abortion" is a distinct sin from "murder" (?), but you keep saying "as we are," implying that homosexuals are simply "not as us." Which is the same problem I've described. Here's a question...whether or not Jesus actually experienced homosexuality, are you arguing that he could not have? Is homosexual lust really that distinct from any other lustful desires outside of marriage between a man and woman? I’m not implying or saying that homosexuals are not “not as us”, I’m saying that your premise that Jesus must have somehow experienced literally every sin temptation possible is silly, as that is not what the average person experiences at all. Jesus could not sin, as he was man, he was still also the son of God. You might as well have asked if Jesus could experience being a thief, or adulterer etc… Wait…are you saying that homosexual attraction is a sin…? |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 15, 2023 0:52:52 GMT
Is homosexual lust really that distinct from any other lustful desires outside of marriage between a man and woman? I’m not implying or saying that homosexuals are not “not as us”, I’m saying that your premise that Jesus must have somehow experienced literally every sin temptation possible is silly, as that is not what the average person experiences at all. Jesus could not sin, as he was man, he was still also the son of God. You might as well have asked if Jesus could experience being a thief, or adulterer etc… Wait…are you saying that homosexual attraction is a sin…? Pretty sure I said lustful desires. Yes. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 1:12:30 GMT
Wait…are you saying that homosexual attraction is a sin…? Pretty sure I said lustful desires. Yes. Attraction is not “lustful desires.” |
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Post by jasmine on Jul 15, 2023 1:18:59 GMT
I think there’s a difference between “attraction” and “lustful desire.” For example, it’s natural to look at a handsome guy and think, “He’s attractive.” But if I turn that attraction into lustful fantasies about him, that would be a sin.
It’d be unnatural for a man to be sexually attracted to another man, but as long as it doesn’t turn into lust or (worse) an actual act, I don’t think it’s a sin. This goes for normal people, too. Sex outside of marriage is also a sin.
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 15, 2023 2:29:00 GMT
Pretty sure I said lustful desires. Yes. Attraction is not “lustful desires.” I know. I said lustful desires. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 13:01:17 GMT
Attraction is not “lustful desires.” I know. I said lustful desires. Homosexual attraction/temptation is not necessarily "lustful desires" any more than heterosexual attraction/temptation is "lustful desires." And I never said anything about Jesus dwelling on or living in lustful desires. I said temptation. |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 15, 2023 14:19:56 GMT
I know. I said lustful desires. Homosexual attraction/temptation is not necessarily "lustful desires" any more than heterosexual attraction/temptation is "lustful desires." And I never said anything about Jesus dwelling on or living in lustful desires. I said temptation. Attraction isn’t temptation either. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 14:30:17 GMT
Homosexual attraction/temptation is not necessarily "lustful desires" any more than heterosexual attraction/temptation is "lustful desires." And I never said anything about Jesus dwelling on or living in lustful desires. I said temptation. Attraction isn’t temptation either. So the subject somehow took a detour. Temptation became conflated with “lustful desires.” Not sure when/where that happened, but it has nothing to do with my assertion about Jesus’ temptations. |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 15, 2023 14:47:09 GMT
Attraction isn’t temptation either. So the subject somehow took a detour. Temptation became conflated with “lustful desires.” Not sure when/where that happened, but it has nothing to do with my assertion about Jesus’ temptations. The turn happened when you tried to dismiss abortion temptation as just being any other form of murder and then I made the same comparison between homosexual temptation and any other form of temptation regarding sexual activity or temptation related to relationships outside of heterosexual marriage. You started nitpicking the wording there instead of dealing with the meat of the point I was making. So, the core terminology here is "homosexual temptation," perhaps you need to define what exactly that is and why you think that is different than other temptation outside of heterosexual marriage in any meaningful way but abortion wouldn't be compared to other forms of murder... To the original flawed point you were trying to make regarding how homosexuals were screwed, based on your other false premise that Jesus must have somehow experience any/every possible kind of temptation. And all the other questions and points of mine you have ignored up to now... like how women are screwed... |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 15:31:36 GMT
So the subject somehow took a detour. Temptation became conflated with “lustful desires.” Not sure when/where that happened, but it has nothing to do with my assertion about Jesus’ temptations. The turn happened when you tried to dismiss abortion temptation as just being any other form of murder and then I made the same comparison between homosexual temptation and any other form of temptation regarding sexual activity or temptation related to relationships outside of heterosexual marriage. You started nitpicking the wording there instead of dealing with the meat of the point I was making. So, the core terminology here is "homosexual temptation," perhaps you need to define what exactly that is and why you think that is different than other temptation outside of heterosexual marriage in any meaningful way but abortion wouldn't be compared to other forms of murder... To the original flawed point you were trying to make regarding how homosexuals were screwed, based on your other false premise that Jesus must have somehow experience any/every possible kind of temptation. And all the other questions and points of mine you have ignored up to now... like how women are screwed... Nah...more like, why is it so hard to deal with the issue that Jesus may have struggled with homosexual temptation, whatever you understand that to be (although certainly akin to heterosexual temptation)? I think part of the issue is the concern that this idea might somehow be "debasing to Jesus," which actually diminishes the shame which the cross represents and the depths to which God will go to demonstrate and enact his love. |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 15, 2023 17:07:09 GMT
The turn happened when you tried to dismiss abortion temptation as just being any other form of murder and then I made the same comparison between homosexual temptation and any other form of temptation regarding sexual activity or temptation related to relationships outside of heterosexual marriage. You started nitpicking the wording there instead of dealing with the meat of the point I was making. So, the core terminology here is "homosexual temptation," perhaps you need to define what exactly that is and why you think that is different than other temptation outside of heterosexual marriage in any meaningful way but abortion wouldn't be compared to other forms of murder... To the original flawed point you were trying to make regarding how homosexuals were screwed, based on your other false premise that Jesus must have somehow experience any/every possible kind of temptation. And all the other questions and points of mine you have ignored up to now... like how women are screwed... Nah...more like, why is it so hard to deal with the issue that Jesus may have struggled with homosexual temptation, whatever you understand that to be (although certainly akin to heterosexual temptation)? I think part of the issue is the concern that this idea might somehow be "debasing to Jesus," which actually diminishes the shame which the cross represents and the depths to which God will go to demonstrate and enact his love. Oh, are you back to this bogus accusation trying to impugn others as having issues because they disagree with your flawed scriptural takes? I will redirect you to the comment I already made to you before, that it doesn't say anything more about those people than it does your obsession with it. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 15, 2023 18:58:44 GMT
This is all rather academic, no?
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 20:14:32 GMT
Nah...more like, why is it so hard to deal with the issue that Jesus may have struggled with homosexual temptation, whatever you understand that to be (although certainly akin to heterosexual temptation)? I think part of the issue is the concern that this idea might somehow be "debasing to Jesus," which actually diminishes the shame which the cross represents and the depths to which God will go to demonstrate and enact his love. Oh, are you back to this bogus accusation trying to impugn others as having issues because they disagree with your flawed scriptural takes? I will redirect you to the comment I already made to you before, that it doesn't say anything more about those people than it does your obsession with it. Well, but why is this so hard to fathom? What's the actual problem with the idea of Jesus suffering from temptation to homosexual attraction? Why is this "off the table"? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2023 20:15:28 GMT
This is all rather academic, no? In what way? Something that "could be," "couldn't be," "might be," "not likely," etc., is not just academic (IMO) because of implications for others and the reasons that inform our opinions. |
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Post by Monster Man on Jul 16, 2023 5:43:19 GMT
Oh, are you back to this bogus accusation trying to impugn others as having issues because they disagree with your flawed scriptural takes? I will redirect you to the comment I already made to you before, that it doesn't say anything more about those people than it does your obsession with it. Well, but why is this so hard to fathom? What's the actual problem with the idea of Jesus suffering from temptation to homosexual attraction? Why is this "off the table"? There is no reason to fathom it. There is no reason to believe Jesus suffered such temptation. Why are you so obsessed with this and what does that say about you? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 16, 2023 11:07:36 GMT
Well, but why is this so hard to fathom? What's the actual problem with the idea of Jesus suffering from temptation to homosexual attraction? Why is this "off the table"? There is no reason to fathom it. There is no reason to believe Jesus suffered such temptation. Why are you so obsessed with this and what does that say about you? The reason to consider it is that people experience this temptation. And for some reason it’s treated as a “worse thing” than other issues. Those are reasons enough. |
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