Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,101
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 3, 2020 21:09:52 GMT
Would China, with a large centralized govt, be considered left or more of a tea party decentralized govt? Aren't you almost implicitly assuming by the wording of this question that large centralized governments are by definition left? Isn't right-wing centralization a thing?
Well it certainly was for Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Tojo's Japan. Not to mention Putin's contemporary Russia, as well as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and a host of tinpot dictatorships across the globe. Which would, sadly, include Trump's vision for America.
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Post by jasmine on Jul 3, 2020 22:15:17 GMT
That’s gestapo-like. Here in Honolulu, our mayor is mandating the wearing of masks in indoor establishments and all outdoor areas where there might be crowds.
I had the most disturbing conversation with someone in Hawaii a few weeks ago when I called to ask about how the quarantines were impacting their business.
Is it true they are broadcasting photos of people seen on the beaches on local television and saying shit like "Have you seen this person?" so they can track them down and fine them?
Is it true that neighbors are reporting each other for leaving their homes? Like the story she told about a woman who had to travel to San Diego and on returning was told to quarantine for 14 days. One day she took her dog outside and her neighbor reported her and she was fined $4,000. (She elaborated to say she was able to fight it down to $2,000....)
How much of that is true and how much embellished "telephone game" shit?
Queshank
I haven’t seen the “have you seen this person” on the news, and I watch almost every night. But I do know that tourists who violate quarantine directives are searched for, arrested and fined. One politician even suggested putting electronic ankle bracelets on them. I have a friend who recently moved back here and had to quarantine for 14 days. The state checked up on here regularly. If she broke quarantine she would be fined $5,000. It’s insane. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,101
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 3, 2020 22:30:23 GMT
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 3, 2020 23:24:10 GMT
Yep, hard to take the moral high ground and refuse to do business with those evil commies when our own governments are acting like evil commies. I think there's a signif dif between a broadly legitimate, if often mistaken, over-reaching and incompetent Government on the one hand, and on the other, a Government that is explicitly opposed to basic concepts of freedom, democracy and the rule of law. Behaving in an authoritarian manner intermittently on certain issues isn't the same as being an authoritarian nightmare. You seem to be suggesting that our governments actually believe in the concepts of freedom, democracy, and the rule of law. These last few months show the exact opposite to be true. While not as bad as China our governments are quickly catching up. |
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Post by limey² on Jul 3, 2020 23:50:28 GMT
I think there's a signif dif between a broadly legitimate, if often mistaken, over-reaching and incompetent Government on the one hand, and on the other, a Government that is explicitly opposed to basic concepts of freedom, democracy and the rule of law. Behaving in an authoritarian manner intermittently on certain issues isn't the same as being an authoritarian nightmare. You seem to be suggesting that our governments actually believe in the concepts of freedom, democracy, and the rule of law. These last few months show the exact opposite to be true. While not as bad as China our governments are quickly catching up. Governments, or elements within them, may not believe in those concepts. While they're dependent on the vote, and enough of the voters believe in those concepts, we're good. Chinese and Russian propaganda is chipping away at that belief. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 4, 2020 0:46:03 GMT
You seem to be suggesting that our governments actually believe in the concepts of freedom, democracy, and the rule of law. These last few months show the exact opposite to be true. While not as bad as China our governments are quickly catching up. Governments, or elements within them, may not believe in those concepts. While they're dependent on the vote, and enough of the voters believe in those concepts, we're good. Chinese and Russian propaganda is chipping away at that belief. The shutdowns, curfews, undemocratic emergency decrees, and general violation of rights are heavily supported by the left leaning segment of the population in the US. I would guess a solid majority of the people in the US supported and continued to support it all. Just look at the comments here. Fids, Phillip, Freon, Ody, DaveJ, Greg, and others I may have left out. They aren't spouting off representing a small minority without any real political power. They are the mainstream. While there is still a sizable minority of the population that continues to believe in the fundamentals of western society that group is getting smaller and smaller. |
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Post by limey² on Jul 4, 2020 2:02:13 GMT
Governments, or elements within them, may not believe in those concepts. While they're dependent on the vote, and enough of the voters believe in those concepts, we're good. Chinese and Russian propaganda is chipping away at that belief. The shutdowns, curfews, undemocratic emergency decrees, and general violation of rights are heavily supported by the left leaning segment of the population in the US. I would guess a solid majority of the people in the US supported and continued to support it all. Just look at the comments here. Fids, Phillip, Freon, Ody, DaveJ, Greg, and others I may have left out. They aren't spouting off representing a small minority without any real political power. They are the mainstream. While there is still a sizable minority of the population that continues to believe in the fundamentals of western society that group is getting smaller and smaller. I'm uncomfortably aware that as a lefty I'm out of step on this. I don't deny the State's right to impose temporary restrictions for the common good, where circumstances demand it. For example, in London in 1940/41, a law forbidding lights to be shown outdors at night was a sound and sensible piece of legislation; you may want to read the evening newspaper by torchlight in your back garden at night, but your neighbours don't want a Heinkel to drop 500kg of bombs on the street. Thanks. I don't think these circumstances demand these restrictions. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 4, 2020 8:12:51 GMT
The shutdowns, curfews, undemocratic emergency decrees, and general violation of rights are heavily supported by the left leaning segment of the population in the US. I would guess a solid majority of the people in the US supported and continued to support it all. Just look at the comments here. Fids, Phillip, Freon, Ody, DaveJ, Greg, and others I may have left out. They aren't spouting off representing a small minority without any real political power. They are the mainstream. While there is still a sizable minority of the population that continues to believe in the fundamentals of western society that group is getting smaller and smaller. I'm uncomfortably aware that as a lefty I'm out of step on this. I don't deny the State's right to impose temporary restrictions for the common good, where circumstances demand it. For example, in London in 1940/41, a law forbidding lights to be shown outdors at night was a sound and sensible piece of legislation; you may want to read the evening newspaper by torchlight in your back garden at night, but your neighbours don't want a Heinkel to drop 500kg of bombs on the street. Thanks. I don't think these circumstances demand these restrictions. At about the same time in America our government thought it was in the best interests of national security, and a huge majority of democratic freedom loving America agreed, to round up all people of Japanese decent, seize their property, and isolate them in camps with horrible conditions. We're on the cusp of the same type of mentality taking hold. This time it's not based on the race, ethnicity, or nationality of the people...it's based on whether or not they are deemed "essential" to the continuance of the state. That is the new danger. It's Stalinism reincarnated. This is how it starts. |
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Post by limey² on Jul 4, 2020 9:22:15 GMT
I'm uncomfortably aware that as a lefty I'm out of step on this. I don't deny the State's right to impose temporary restrictions for the common good, where circumstances demand it. For example, in London in 1940/41, a law forbidding lights to be shown outdors at night was a sound and sensible piece of legislation; you may want to read the evening newspaper by torchlight in your back garden at night, but your neighbours don't want a Heinkel to drop 500kg of bombs on the street. Thanks. I don't think these circumstances demand these restrictions. At about the same time in America our government thought it was in the best interests of national security, and a huge majority of democratic freedom loving America agreed, to round up all people of Japanese decent, seize their property, and isolate them in camps with horrible conditions. We're on the cusp of the same type of mentality taking hold. This time it's not based on the race, ethnicity, or nationality of the people...it's based on whether or not they are deemed "essential" to the continuance of the state. That is the new danger. It's Stalinism reincarnated. This is how it starts. I'd say those two examples, blackouts during the Blitz and internment of JapaneseJapanese-Americans, are useful. One was genuinely necessary, didn't cause any diminuation of freedom beyond the trivial, and was obviously urgently required of everyone, no exception. Internment was lazy, fear driven and counterproductive. We've discovered an illustrative discussion on Millsian Utility! |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,101
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 4, 2020 10:35:17 GMT
"One was genuinely necessary, didn't cause any diminuation of freedom beyond the trivial, and was obviously urgently required of everyone, no exception."
A fairly accurate description of the measures being used to combat the pandemic today. Which are not at all analogous to the internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry during WWII. Lomello is being a drama queen.
NTTAWWT.
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Post by limey² on Jul 4, 2020 12:04:10 GMT
"One was genuinely necessary, didn't cause any diminuation of freedom beyond the trivial, and was obviously urgently required of everyone, no exception."
A fairly accurate description of the measures being used to combat the pandemic today. Which are not at all analogous to the internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry during WWII. Lomello is being a drama queen.
NTTAWWT.
I'm not so sure. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4866586/I'm beginning to be sure that we should have protected the vulnerable, and let Covid19 rip amongst the rest of us like we do with flu every year. The coming economic catastrophe will shorten many/most lives. The aggregate number of lost life-years from (a) trashing the economy and (b) letting Covid19 rip is likely in orders of magnitude. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,101
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 4, 2020 18:47:05 GMT
"One was genuinely necessary, didn't cause any diminuation of freedom beyond the trivial, and was obviously urgently required of everyone, no exception."
A fairly accurate description of the measures being used to combat the pandemic today. Which are not at all analogous to the internment of American citizens of Japanese ancestry during WWII. Lomello is being a drama queen.
NTTAWWT.
I'm not so sure. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4866586/I'm beginning to be sure that we should have protected the vulnerable, and let Covid19 rip amongst the rest of us like we do with flu every year. The coming economic catastrophe will shorten many/most lives. The aggregate number of lost life-years from (a) trashing the economy and (b) letting Covid19 rip is likely in orders of magnitude.
A few problems with your "plan":
1) Covid-19 is more communicable than influenza.
2) There are effective vaccines against influenza.
3) How do you propose to "protect the vulnerable" when their caretakers are part of the population in which you say we should let Covid-19 "rip"?
4) Letting the coronavirus "rip" would quickly overwhelm what medical resources we have to treat those with severe infections. How the fuck is that a good plan?
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Post by limey² on Jul 4, 2020 18:53:33 GMT
I'm not so sure. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4866586/I'm beginning to be sure that we should have protected the vulnerable, and let Covid19 rip amongst the rest of us like we do with flu every year. The coming economic catastrophe will shorten many/most lives. The aggregate number of lost life-years from (a) trashing the economy and (b) letting Covid19 rip is likely in orders of magnitude.
A few problems with your "plan":
1) Covid-19 is more communicable than influenza.
2) There are effective vaccines against influenza.
3) How do you propose to "protect the vulnerable" when their caretakers are part of the population in which you say we should let Covid-19 "rip"?
4) Letting the coronavirus "rip" would quickly overwhelm what medical resources we have to treat those with severe infections. How the fuck is that a good plan?
It's moderately more contagious and moderately more lethal than influenza. Systems could be set up to allow the vulnerable groups to live in protective regimes until vaccine/cure comes along. I repeat: the loss of life from the economic catastrophe will dwarf that from covid. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,101
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 4, 2020 19:07:11 GMT
A few problems with your "plan":
1) Covid-19 is more communicable than influenza.
2) There are effective vaccines against influenza.
3) How do you propose to "protect the vulnerable" when their caretakers are part of the population in which you say we should let Covid-19 "rip"?
4) Letting the coronavirus "rip" would quickly overwhelm what medical resources we have to treat those with severe infections. How the fuck is that a good plan?
It's moderately more contagious and moderately more lethal than influenza. Systems could be set up to allow the vulnerable groups to live in protective regimes until vaccine/cure comes along. I repeat: the loss of life from the economic catastrophe will dwarf that from covid.
Where's the evidence to support your assertions, especially that deaths from the "economic catastrophe" you are alleging will be more than deaths from an uncontrolled covid-19 pandemic?
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 4, 2020 20:10:52 GMT
At about the same time in America our government thought it was in the best interests of national security, and a huge majority of democratic freedom loving America agreed, to round up all people of Japanese decent, seize their property, and isolate them in camps with horrible conditions. We're on the cusp of the same type of mentality taking hold. This time it's not based on the race, ethnicity, or nationality of the people...it's based on whether or not they are deemed "essential" to the continuance of the state. That is the new danger. It's Stalinism reincarnated. This is how it starts. I'd say those two examples, blackouts during the Blitz and internment of JapaneseJapanese-Americans, are useful. One was genuinely necessary, didn't cause any diminuation of freedom beyond the trivial, and was obviously urgently required of everyone, no exception. Internment was lazy, fear driven and counterproductive. We've discovered an illustrative discussion on Millsian Utility! I'm curious. At that time do you believe that London even needed to pass a law telling people to turn off their lights? It would seem logical to me that most people would have their lights off or their neighbors would get mighty upset with them. Was it a law created through the democratic process? Or was it an emergency decree? Just wondering. |
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 5, 2020 3:32:20 GMT
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