demos
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Post by demos on Apr 8, 2022 16:53:28 GMT
Interesting thread. If we're really addressing free speech, then a good example of extremist speech would be the Radio talking heads from Rwanda. www.theguardian.com/media/2003/dec/04/pressandpublishing.radioThey promoted the killing (but didn't participate) on air and helped the masses get worked up enough to keep the blood flowing. Free speech? Criminal speech? Found guilty AFTERWARDS, but can, or should, they have been banned earlier? They didn't participate in the killings but they were giving out names and addresses on air. As to why they weren't banned earlier is because they were the ruling party's official radio station.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 8, 2022 16:55:34 GMT
If you "nip things in the bud", you're not only destroying freedom of speech, you're also condoning the same kind of behavior as the one you're trying to denounce. So no, before you stop someone or something you need to wait until it has done something eminently bad. Like I said, maybe read all the comments in the thread: #13: "Maybe when they attempt to act on that or others do (can probably make a compelling conspiracy argument)? Germany had an opportunity to deal with Hitler during and after the failed putsch, instead he was given a minimum sentence by a sympathetic court." And #33: "As mentioned earlier, I think that point is when thought starts to become action. In Hitler's case, there was the putsch. However, because the culture - at least in Bavaria - was sympathetic to Hitler's views (if not in outright agreement), he was given a very light sentence and allowed to write Mein Kampf while he was in a jail for a few months." The purpose of bringing up European anti-semitism, Germanic occult beliefs, etc. is to play with the thought experiment and demonstrate the very point you're making above. If you want to deal with Hitler's ideas and expression of them, you're gonna have to deal with more than just Hitler.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2022 17:02:59 GMT
If you "nip things in the bud", you're not only destroying freedom of speech, you're also condoning the same kind of behavior as the one you're trying to denounce. So no, before you stop someone or something you need to wait until it has done something eminently bad. ...If you want to deal with Hitler's ideas and expression of them, you're gonna have to deal with more than just Hitler. On that, I agree.
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Fiddler
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Post by Fiddler on Apr 8, 2022 17:34:37 GMT
This is a thread about "free speech" or more accurately.. can or when does free speech go too far. Here we can, at any time in his rise, pull the trigger and a time traveling bullet drops Hitler like RWB dropping an unread science primer.. (Hint: they're all unread.)
Some might say.. kill him in his crib.. or kill his mother. Obviously wrong. He hasn't "Hitler'ed" yet .. Once he begins to "Hitler" is he fair game?
Or .. for you namby pambies... if you prefer, rather than a time traveling bullet killing Hitler .. a temporally agile Mark Zuckerburg bans him from ze ZZocial media of that time ..
The point is for all those who like to say "Under complete freedom of speech, more persuasive ideas are able to gain more votes and thus more power and control of armies and police than less persuasive ideas." .. how should we or in fact should we stop persuasive ideas that are clearly psychopathic.? We never killed Hitler, nor did we do anything to stop him save for what we are doing for Ukraine now, military equipment, training, and volunteers to fight. And just like Hitler, Putin is taking advantage of it, and committing the same war crimes. And still we do nothing.
It was not until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor that we entered the war. So, what will it take this time for the cowards to actually do something.
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Fiddler
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Post by Fiddler on Apr 8, 2022 17:42:22 GMT
Interesting thread. If we're really addressing free speech, then a good example of extremist speech would be the Radio talking heads from Rwanda. www.theguardian.com/media/2003/dec/04/pressandpublishing.radioThey promoted the killing (but didn't participate) on air and helped the masses get worked up enough to keep the blood flowing. Free speech? Criminal speech? Found guilty AFTERWARDS, but can, or should, they have been banned earlier?
Good reference. Plus I'm glad I didn't have to explain the OP's objective to you ..
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Post by oldtrapper on Apr 8, 2022 17:43:02 GMT
We never killed Hitler, nor did we do anything to stop him save for what we are doing for Ukraine now, military equipment, training, and volunteers to fight. And just like Hitler, Putin is taking advantage of it, and committing the same war crimes. And still we do nothing.
It was not until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor that we entered the war. So, what will it take this time for the cowards to actually do something.
Understanding that few in here have any comprehension of the teachings of Christ, yet love to use Him as a method of ridicule:
John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends."
Like I said, when will the cowards do what is right, and needed? Or will they continue to condescend to another lying, coward while others die.
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Post by oldtrapper on Apr 8, 2022 17:48:29 GMT
If you "nip things in the bud", you're not only destroying freedom of speech, you're also condoning the same kind of behavior as the one you're trying to denounce. So no, before you stop someone or something you need to wait until it has done something eminently bad. Like I said, maybe read all the comments in the thread: And #33: "As mentioned earlier, I think that point is when thought starts to become action. In Hitler's case, there was the putsch. However, because the culture - at least in Bavaria - was sympathetic to Hitler's views (if not in outright agreement), he was given a very light sentence and allowed to write Mein Kampf while he was in a jail for a few months." Is that not the same way we are dealing with trump, and his followers? Well, save for the fact that trump has not been sent to jail.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 8, 2022 17:51:36 GMT
As I recall, nobody had to kill Hitler. He committed suicide. LOL.. way to miss the point. .. Newsflash: Adolf Hitler died about 77 years ago. Yes.. Apparently just a few years before the death of your inquisitiveness ... You do understand that this is a thought experiment.. don't you.?
The OP asked, "At what point do you kill Hitler?". Optimally, before he had been elected chancellor and done all his evil crap. But today, again, it is moot, because he no longer exists.
Capiche?
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Fiddler
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Post by Fiddler on Apr 8, 2022 18:19:03 GMT
LOL.. way to miss the point. .. Yes.. Apparently just a few years before the death of your inquisitiveness ... You do understand that this is a thought experiment.. don't you.?
Capiche?
I'm afraid you do not..
This isn't about Hitler's death per se .. obviously he's dead. It's about how long should calls for violence be tolerated .. i.e. free speech .. before the caller loses his right to speak.
We know the outcome of Hitler's 'free speech' .. That's why he was chosen. So with our time traveling bullet, when or is there an appropriate time to kill him.?
I can't believe I'm having to explain this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2022 20:04:51 GMT
I'm afraid you do not..
This isn't about Hitler's death per se .. obviously he's dead. It's about how long should calls for violence be tolerated .. i.e. free speech .. before the caller loses his right to speak. We know the outcome of Hitler's 'free speech' .. That's why he was chosen. So with our time traveling bullet, when or is there an appropriate time to kill him.?
I can't believe I'm having to explain this. The reason you keep having to "explain" the OP is because you keep saying things that don't make sense. Like this.
"We know the outcome of Hitler's 'free speech' ...."
Free speech would have stopped Hitler.
You don't seem to understand that the censorship of Nazi views in 1920s Weimar fueled Hitler's rise to power. And once gaining power, Hitler used the broadcasting infrastructure the Weimar Republic created against them.
To answer your stupid "thought experiment" that you think you're trying to make ... at birth. We know what happens. Kill him immediately. Done and done. What the fuck is the point of a debate?
Just stop pretending free speech has anything to do with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2022 20:47:42 GMT
I'm afraid you do not..
This isn't about Hitler's death per se .. obviously he's dead. It's about how long should calls for violence be tolerated .. i.e. free speech .. before the caller loses his right to speak.
We know the outcome of Hitler's 'free speech' .. That's why he was chosen. So with our time traveling bullet, when or is there an appropriate time to kill him.?
I can't believe I'm having to explain this.
I think public appeal for violence should be punished in a manner proportionate to the violence and directness of the appeal and the number of people potentially influenced by the appeal (this is already dealt with in other countries, e.g France) For examples, if you're a drunk in a bar and make such an appeal that results in bar brawl (and nobody is seriously wounded), one night in a cell should do it but if you're a public person and can potentially influence thousands, nay millions then the matter need to be dealt with way more seriously.
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Post by CadesCove on Apr 8, 2022 20:49:00 GMT
I cannot believe pointing out the obvious is so... foreign here. People disagreeing to be disagreeable on LNF? Shocking.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 8, 2022 21:21:17 GMT
I'm afraid you do not..
This isn't about Hitler's death per se .. obviously he's dead. It's about how long should calls for violence be tolerated .. i.e. free speech .. before the caller loses his right to speak.
We know the outcome of Hitler's 'free speech' .. That's why he was chosen. So with our time traveling bullet, when or is there an appropriate time to kill him.?
I can't believe I'm having to explain this.
When has time travel ever existed, other than in someone's imagination?
And why make such a fuss over the imaginary?
As for killing Hitler, sure, it would have been better had he met his end before he became chancellor. But that is just casting pebbles in the ocean, and neglecting the ripples.
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Post by william on May 10, 2022 13:21:16 GMT
I'm afraid you do not..
This isn't about Hitler's death per se .. obviously he's dead. It's about how long should calls for violence be tolerated .. i.e. free speech .. before the caller loses his right to speak.
We know the outcome of Hitler's 'free speech' .. That's why he was chosen. So with our time traveling bullet, when or is there an appropriate time to kill him.?
I can't believe I'm having to explain this.
When has time travel ever existed, other than in someone's imagination?
And why make such a fuss over the imaginary?
As for killing Hitler, sure, it would have been better had he met his end before he became chancellor. But that is just casting pebbles in the ocean, and neglecting the ripples.
Do you enjoy acting stupid? Is this My Pillow Guy persona of yours have a purpose? There's no way that a kid in Jr. High couldn't understand and discuss this topic.
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petep
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Post by petep on May 10, 2022 14:47:19 GMT
The problem is that we don't have any means of knowing who's gonna be a successful Hitler and who's gonna fail completely and end up a relatively harmless loon in someone's basement. For one of the first category there are thousands, nay millions of the second. probably invading a country because you have to get rid of the nazis and drug dealers as an excuse.....is a good start to deciding who the next hitler is...the thousands and thousands exterminated would be the next sign...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 15:06:59 GMT
Time Travel is impossible. Not according to Stephen Hawking, but he was a genius and you're an idiot so...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 15:10:23 GMT
The problem is that we don't have any means of knowing who's gonna be a successful Hitler and who's gonna fail completely and end up a relatively harmless loon in someone's basement. For one of the first category there are thousands, nay millions of the second. probably invading a country because you have to get rid of the nazis and drug dealers as an excuse.....is a good start to deciding who the next hitler is...the thousands and thousands exterminated would be the next sign... We were talking about people in their infancy or at least before they become powerful. This doesn't qualify.
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Post by Monster Man on May 10, 2022 15:12:10 GMT
Time Travel is impossible. Not according to Stephen Hawking, but he was a genius and you're an idiot so... This... this is what you drug me back into this idiotic thread over? Stephen Hawking is dead, I am alive. There isn't time travel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 15:15:23 GMT
Not according to Stephen Hawking, but he was a genius and you're an idiot so... This... this is what you drug me back into this idiotic thread over? Stephen Hawking is dead, I am alive. There isn't time travel. If that isn't the apex of hubris... nothing is.
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Post by Monster Man on May 10, 2022 15:21:27 GMT
This... this is what you drug me back into this idiotic thread over? Stephen Hawking is dead, I am alive. There isn't time travel. If that isn't the apex of hubris... nothing is. Yeah, I guess the time travelers never got his party invite... ROFL
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