petep
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Post by petep on Jan 17, 2023 16:24:56 GMT
Perhaps the largest mistake the west made was not telling Putin and the Russian people what the consequences would be if Putin attacked Russia.
And whatever those consequences were, each day Russia stayed in Ukraine would add two months to the consequences.
What Putin has done and is doing is so so so far out of bounds the consequences must be so utterly severe he can’t breathe. And sadly, the Russian people will have to suffer so so so badly for what Putin is doing they never have another radical former communist authoritarian running the country again.
Limey is spot on. The secret to ending this is for Putin to bring his troops home and stop decimating a sovereign nation would did nothing at all to warrant this invasion.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 17, 2023 16:25:55 GMT
It is for Russia to withdraw behind its own borders. In exchange for what? People are talking about continuing sanctions, and some are even wanting to precipitate some form of state collapse.
Not sure Russia sees that as a carrot, nor that they believe it.
Regardless, without some form of outright victory by either side (which I can't foresee at this point), exhaustion will have to set in before anyone comes to the table.
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petep
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Post by petep on Jan 17, 2023 16:30:13 GMT
It is for Russia to withdraw behind its own borders. In exchange for what? People are talking about continuing sanctions, and some are even wanting to precipitate some form of state collapse.
Not sure Russia sees that as a carrot, nor that they believe it.
Regardless, without some form of outright victory by either side (which I can't foresee at this point), exhaustion will have to set in before anyone comes to the table.
There is a great deal of money made when one punch is met with one punch. The money stops when one punch is met with a building falling on top of the aggressor. I don’t believe the solution is letting Putin win this. All it will do is encourage is horrific behavior and send a signal to China and every other authoritarian regime to follow Putin’s steps As far as how it’s impacting the west - there is not a day that goes by that all we hear non stop is every bad thing happening now is tied to Putin’s invasion. Unfortunately in a global economy when when idiot like Putin attacks another, he is treading on me. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 17, 2023 18:19:31 GMT
Interesting read about Germany's response to this conflict: Source
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petep
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Post by petep on Jan 17, 2023 18:30:23 GMT
Interesting read about Germany's response to this conflict: Source
At least I’m the short term europe has far more to fear with a Putin victory. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jan 17, 2023 19:02:12 GMT
Putin: "Russia needs Ukraine!"
Trump: "Take it, Vlad. Take it ALL!"
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jan 17, 2023 19:09:12 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 13:14:12 GMT
We all remember what a democratic egalitarian paradise Afghanistan became after we used this strat from the blob's playbook there. |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jan 18, 2023 13:18:40 GMT
Putin: "Russia needs Ukraine!"
Trump: "Take it, Vlad. Take it ALL!"
Bwaaa hahahahaha. Imagine not understanding chronology at all. Lmao! |
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Post by limey² on Jan 18, 2023 17:42:34 GMT
We all remember what a democratic egalitarian paradise Afghanistan became after we used this strat from the blob's playbook there. 1. Afghanistan wasn't even trying to be egalitarian or democratic 2. Nobody involved in the invasion seriously expected either attribute as an outcome. That wasn't the purpose 3. Ukraine is certainly on a path to being a functioning democracy 4. Russia is actively opposed to democracy and the wider rule of law. 5. Your point is irrelevant and misconceived |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 18, 2023 19:02:47 GMT
Lot of stuff, and I have some comments for each, so just going to post links to headlines.
First:
If this war is going to end soon, that's only going to happen through negotiations, because it looks like both NATO and Russia are settling in the for the long haul. And negotiation is going to mean conceding to some of Russia's demands, which the U.S. is categorically ruling out - at least with regard to territory.
Second:
People just seem to assume Russia would've sat back and let it happen. I feel like a lot of people completely forget about Georgia, not to mention the repeated emphasis by various Russian officials and politicians that Ukrainian membership was a red line for them. Had the U.S. pushed NATO membership sooner, this conflict would've happened much sooner.
Third:
This conflict is requiring us to make choices, as this shows (not to mention issues with arming Taiwan). We can't do everything; we have to prioritize what is important for us. If that's Ukraine, fine, but just realize that that means downgrading other regions.
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thor
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Post by thor on Jan 18, 2023 19:13:47 GMT
Lot of stuff, and I have some comments for each, so just going to post links to headlines.
First:
If this war is going to end soon, that's only going to happen through negotiations, because it looks like both NATO and Russia are settling in the for the long haul. And negotiation is going to mean conceding to some of Russia's demands, which the U.S. is categorically ruling out - at least with regard to territory.
Second:
People just seem to assume Russia would've sat back and let it happen. I feel like a lot of people completely forget about Georgia, not to mention the repeated emphasis by various Russian officials and politicians that Ukrainian membership was a red line for them. Had the U.S. pushed NATO membership sooner, this conflict would've happened much sooner.
Third:
This conflict is requiring us to make choices, as this shows (not to mention issues with arming Taiwan). We can't do everything; we have to prioritize what is important for us. If that's Ukraine, fine, but just realize that that means downgrading other regions.
So the party attacked should roll over? |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 18, 2023 19:42:13 GMT
So the party attacked should roll over? They obviously haven't just rolled over; however, IF Zelensky wants this conflict to end sooner rather than later, it's going to mean giving something up and making some concessions (which he was willing to do early on in this conflict).
Everyone else involved seems willing to ride this out for quite some time and are talking about a long war.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 20:51:01 GMT
We all remember what a democratic egalitarian paradise Afghanistan became after we used this strat from the blob's playbook there. 1. Afghanistan wasn't even trying to be egalitarian or democratic 2. Nobody involved in the invasion seriously expected either attribute as an outcome. That wasn't the purpose 3. Ukraine is certainly on a path to being a functioning democracy 4. Russia is actively opposed to democracy and the wider rule of law. 5. Your point is irrelevant and misconceived
Before I stick my dick in your ass and wiggle it around until you bleed, I have to ask ...
Do you seriously think I'm talking about the US and UK's invasion of Afghanistan and not the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan despite all evidence to the contrary?
You know. The war when it was predicted that US meddling in Afghanistan would result in a Soviet invasion, creepily resembling the exact situation we are left with in Ukraine?
In reality, however, US aid to the Mujahedin began in July 1979 (six months before the Soviet invasion) and, as former US National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski admitted in a 1998 interview, this aid increased the probability that the Soviet Union would invade Afghanistan. Using declassified US government documents and memorandums from the 1970s and 1980s, this essay substantiates, corroborates, and develops the admissions made in Brzezinski’s 1998 interview, arguing that Soviet military intervention in Afghanistan was not a catastrophe for US foreign interests, but rather a US provocation that bolstered US Cold War foreign policy objectives. Ultimately, the Soviet-Afghan War launched a cascade of devastating long-term and large-scale consequences, including the solidification of the concept of global violent jihad, the formation of al-Qaeda, and the rise of the Taliban regime.
Your ignorance constantly being displayed in these conversations as being neocon talking point deep is duly noted.
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thor
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Post by thor on Jan 18, 2023 20:51:23 GMT
So the party attacked should roll over? They obviously haven't just rolled over; however, IF Zelensky wants this conflict to end sooner rather than later, it's going to mean giving something up and making some concessions (which he was willing to do early on in this conflict).
Everyone else involved seems willing to ride this out for quite some time and are talking about a long war.
Why should they give anything up? They are the aggrieved party. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 18, 2023 21:04:34 GMT
Why should they give anything up? They are the aggrieved party. And the aggrieved party in a war never gives anything up?
Ukraine can keep fighting, but without an outright victory, something is going to be given up. Could be wrong, but I don't see either side obtaining an outright victory, so best case scenario is that Russia becomes exhausted, doesn't get everything it wants, and settles for less.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 21:05:48 GMT
A few pictures of Afghanistan before we did exactly to them what we are right now doing to Ukraine...
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thor
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Post by thor on Jan 18, 2023 21:09:54 GMT
Why should they give anything up? They are the aggrieved party. And the aggrieved party in a war never gives anything up?
Ukraine can keep fighting, but without an outright victory, something is going to be given up. Could be wrong, but I don't see either side obtaining an outright victory, so best case scenario is that Russia becomes exhausted, doesn't get everything it wants, and settles for less.
What do they owe the Russians? |
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thor
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Post by thor on Jan 18, 2023 21:11:43 GMT
A few pictures of Afghanistan before we did exactly to them what we are right now doing to Ukraine...
Que-Anon actually believes that women dressed like this was common throughout Afghanistan. He's researched consumed media telling him this thoroughly. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 21:21:02 GMT
A few pictures of Afghanistan before we did exactly to them what we are right now doing to Ukraine...
Que-Anon actually believes that women dressed like this was common throughout Afghanistan. He's researched consumed media telling him this thoroughly. Ooofdah ... ^^ this level of stupid. Fungi are more intelligent.
Women dressed like this *certainly* isn't common now is it, peanut?
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