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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 16:42:03 GMT
Cherry picked? We pointed to dedication speech after dedication speech after dedication speech. We found enough to fill a book and we barely even looked. And then there are the secession declarations and ordinances. All of it points to the overwhelming importance of the slave question. Yes, there were other issues. But without slavery there wouldn't have been a war. The fact of the matter is there is more to history than the story you are telling about some southerners standing up for the constitution and limited government. That is an overly simplistic, reductionistic, distorted narrative abut the past that conceals more than it illuminates. To hear you tell it, racial ideas about inferiority weren't a motivating factor for the south. You have the whole board believing you are a racist because you side with racists (the confederacy) in a way that doesn't make sense intellectually, rationally or factually. It does make sense as a function of tribe and identity. We conclude you run cover for the confederacy because you identity with them and their cause. No one honestly weighing the facts would come to the conclusions you have. You couldn't fill a PAGE with the cherry picked PARAGRAPHS and SENTENCES from a handful of dedication speeches by bloviating guest politicians. You couldn't fill a sentence with examples of monuments that express the sentiments that you claim drove their creation.
And there were only three Declarations of Causes (out of 11 seceded states) and NO Ordinances that gave slavery as the cause. All of the declarations gave other causes which you ignored. I proved that as well.
It's intellectually lazy to keep repeating this Northern fiction after I've refuted it all, but, like a chihuahua after ankles, you keep coming back with the same old nonsense, which has now devolved into childish name calling. Crying "racist" is one of the most vacuous and disreputable tricks in the liberal playbook.
You don't come off smarter with that "no slavery, no war" ploy, either. The tariff almost lead to blows in 1832 and likely would have been a driver toward war later as well. The North didn't mind trying the Corwin Amendment (permanent slavery protection) in 1861 because their larger goal was greater central power and control over everything else, and THAT despicable Yankee goal was the real reason that the South wanted out.
The only "overly simplistic, reductionistic, distorted narrative" here is your "slavery was the only reason!" fiction. Your accusation borders on projection. You've ignored ALL OTHER CAUSES in every post while you desperately cling to your shallow, cartoonish, comic book style tale, and yet dare to accuse someone else of distortion? What a joke. My narrative goes a hell of a lot deeper into the issues than anything that you've posted or proposed.
On any other subject, assigning motivation to an entire group based on the flimsiest evidence from the elite 1% would look as stupid to you as it does to me; yet on this subject, you've repeatedly made that glaring mistake.
Try using your laughably flawed "logic" on a current example; let's select a number of Chicago thugs and gangbangers and then assign that evil motivation to every black person in America. After all, based on your anecdotal evidence method, it's not necessary to be more complex than that, right?
"Siding with racists"? Not true. Unlike you, I'm siding with the truth....pretty, ugly, neat or messy, I look at all of it. Your chronic cherry picking defies common sense; the few examples that you repeat aren't the whole picture nor sufficient evidence, yet you refuse to look any deeper. And ridicule those who do.
Instead of that fallacious "guilt by association" standard, show us where I have labelled any race as superior on this forum. Schooling you on uncomfortable facts is not racist.
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Post by freonbale on Jul 27, 2020 17:22:28 GMT
"First, they revised history and painted the South as evil and I accepted it.
Then they banned the Confederate flag, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Southerner.
Then they tore down the Confederate Statues and Memorials, and I did not speak out— because I was afraid of being labeled a racist.
Then they began tearing down statues of the founding fathers, and I cried out forgive their sins, but was ignored.
Then they burned the constitution and enslaved us under Socialism and now, I am forbidden to speak."
Read Orwell or Huxley if you're curious how life will change.
This is a remake of a poem written by a former Nazi minister, calling himself, and those like him, a coward.
Totally appropriate that it is being applied to Confederates.
Freon
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 18:02:58 GMT
"First, they revised history and painted the South as evil and I accepted it.
Then they banned the Confederate flag, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Southerner.
Then they tore down the Confederate Statues and Memorials, and I did not speak out— because I was afraid of being labeled a racist.
Then they began tearing down statues of the founding fathers, and I cried out forgive their sins, but was ignored.
Then they burned the constitution and enslaved us under Socialism and now, I am forbidden to speak."
Read Orwell or Huxley if you're curious how life will change.
This is a remake of a poem written by a former Nazi minister, calling himself, and those like him, a coward.
Totally appropriate that it is being applied to Confederates.
Freon
Thanks, FB, but I was already pretty familiar with Niemöller's original. But I'm not sure that you get why Niemöller labelled himself and others as cowards. His cowardice label was for those who failed to defend what is right, even if it had no direct application to them. He was chastising people who failed to make a stand against evil.
The paraphrase above reveals the pusillanimity of alleged conservatives who fail to stand in defense of Southern history and who will therefore alone face the liberal filth when they complete their purge of history and forbid any freedom of thought. The liberals are the villains and those who fail to oppose them are the cowards.
And I can't believe that I'm have to explain all of this to you.
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 27, 2020 18:52:56 GMT
after I've refuted it all, Just to restate the facts in this thread .. No.. You've refuted nothing. Your dance routine consists of repeatedly stumbling over long discredited revisionist histories of a honorable Confederacy.. . i.e. Same shit .. different day .. Your tenacity does not translate to veracity .. Never will. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 27, 2020 19:03:34 GMT
after I've refuted it all, Just to restate the facts in this thread .. No.. You've refuted nothing. Your dance routine consists of repeatedly stumbling over long discredited revisionist histories of a honorable Confederacy.. . i.e. Same shit .. different day .. Your tenacity does not translate to veracity .. Never will.
It's incredible how some cons are trying to twist Neimöller's confession about staying silent about the abuses of fascism into a defense of racism and slavery.
Go figure.
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Post by freonbale on Jul 27, 2020 19:05:42 GMT
This is a remake of a poem written by a former Nazi minister, calling himself, and those like him, a coward.
Totally appropriate that it is being applied to Confederates.
Freon
Thanks, FB, but I was already pretty familiar with Niemöller's original. But I'm not sure that you get why Niemöller labelled himself and others as cowards. His cowardice label was for those who failed to defend what is right, even if it had no direct application to them. He was chastising people who failed to make a stand against evil.
The paraphrase above reveals the pusillanimity of alleged conservatives who fail to stand in defense of Southern history and who will therefore alone face the liberal filth when they complete their purge of history and forbid any freedom of thought. The liberals are the villains and those who fail to oppose them are the cowards.
And I can't believe that I'm have to explain all of this to you.
You are only talking about half of it. HE was the Nazi. HE was the evil.
He was ashamed of himself not for just being quiet, but for ENABLING others to do harm.
That's why I have to explain this to you. Because you think you are the good guys. You're not.
Freon
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 27, 2020 19:10:15 GMT
Because you think you are the good guys. You're not. As we see too often with wannabe Slavers .. He had no clue that Niemöller's prose was a confession. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 19:12:33 GMT
after I've refuted it all, Just to restate the facts in this thread .. No.. You've refuted nothing. Your dance routine consists of repeatedly stumbling over long discredited revisionist histories of a honorable Confederacy.. . i.e. Same shit .. different day .. Your tenacity does not translate to veracity .. Never will. Such empty bloviation from you does not translate to intelligence. Never will.
None of what I have posted has been discredited and certainly not by the likes of you.
Face it, Fids...when the conversation gets complicated, you're relegated to cheerleader.
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Post by Greg55_99 on Jul 27, 2020 19:15:33 GMT
3.9 MILLION people confined to forced labor camps, deprived of any rights and bred like cattle. To you, those are the good guys.
Seriously?
Greg
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 19:28:48 GMT
Thanks, FB, but I was already pretty familiar with Niemöller's original. But I'm not sure that you get why Niemöller labelled himself and others as cowards. His cowardice label was for those who failed to defend what is right, even if it had no direct application to them. He was chastising people who failed to make a stand against evil.
The paraphrase above reveals the pusillanimity of alleged conservatives who fail to stand in defense of Southern history and who will therefore alone face the liberal filth when they complete their purge of history and forbid any freedom of thought. The liberals are the villains and those who fail to oppose them are the cowards.
And I can't believe that I'm have to explain all of this to you.
You are only talking about half of it. HE was the Nazi. HE was the evil.
He was ashamed of himself not for just being quiet, but for ENABLING others to do harm.
That's why I have to explain this to you. Because you think you are the good guys. You're not.
Freon
All you have revealed is how clueless you are. Of course we are the good guys; do you see us rioting and purging everything that disagrees with our narrative? Do we go savage at the slightest offense? But far too many alleged conservatives are like Niemöller before he repented; those turncoats are enabling and even encouraging the left wing animals who purge and destroy statues and monuments. Many low life Republicans have even joined the cancel culture mandated apology tour. In my paraphrase above, the protesters and their liberal allies are more like the unrepentant Nazis; they have no remorse about the perversions that they commit or allow to be committed. The left actually enjoys purging the truth.
Have you got it now or do I need to explain more to you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 19:47:37 GMT
3.9 MILLION people confined to forced labor camps, deprived of any rights and bred like cattle. To you, those are the good guys. Seriously? Greg In the U.S., sixty million children have been slaughtered in the last 37 years and still counting at a rate of 2000+ per day. Almost 20 million blacks butchered before birth since 1973.
That part of American culture today is pure evil, easily comparable to the deprivations of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Abortion is far, FAR worse than slavery, but is it fair that the whole of America must be judged evil by that standard? That's your "logic" above.
Slavery in the 19th century was just as legal and just as controversial as abortion is today. Abortions and those who commit such crimes are a small percentage in America, just as slave owners were a small percentage in the 19th century
I say that America's still the good guys despite this terribly cruel policy. Are you willing to condemn America for this evil practice of abortion? If not, you'd be just like the slave owners who had a different opinion on what was a legal practice in their time.
Now, Greg, do you begin to understand that things are far more complicated and messy than your narrative implies. And the complexity that I bring to the table evidently drives liberals nuts.
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Post by freonbale on Jul 27, 2020 19:53:58 GMT
You are only talking about half of it. HE was the Nazi. HE was the evil.
He was ashamed of himself not for just being quiet, but for ENABLING others to do harm.
That's why I have to explain this to you. Because you think you are the good guys. You're not.
Freon
All you have revealed is how clueless you are. Of course we are the good guys; do you see us rioting and purging everything that disagrees with our narrative? Do we go savage at the slightest offense? But far too many alleged conservatives are like Niemöller before he repented; those turncoats are enabling and even encouraging the left wing animals who purge and destroy statues and monuments. Many low life Republicans have even joined the cancel culture mandated apology tour. In my paraphrase above, the protesters and their liberal allies are more like the unrepentant Nazis; they have no remorse about the perversions that they commit or allow to be committed. The left actually enjoys purging the truth.
Have you got it now or do I need to explain more to you?
It sounds like you are arguing that the METHOD of standing up for their rights is what you oppose. Rioting and purging. Yet our founding fathers did the exact same thing. You think to England, they were pacifists who wanted to retain the history of their oppressors?
Hardly.
We are a nation FOUNDED on violent uprisings to obtain freedom.
And who were those who did NOT want things to change? The slave owners back then. Now? You.
Freon
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Post by freonbale on Jul 27, 2020 19:56:01 GMT
3.9 MILLION people confined to forced labor camps, deprived of any rights and bred like cattle. To you, those are the good guys. Seriously? Greg In the U.S., sixty million children have been slaughtered in the last 37 years and still counting at a rate of 2000+ per day. Almost 20 million blacks butchered before birth since 1973.
That part of American culture today is pure evil, easily comparable to the deprivations of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Abortion is far, FAR worse than slavery, but is it fair that the whole of America must be judged evil by that standard? That's your "logic" above.
Slavery in the 19th century was just as legal and just as controversial as abortion is today. Abortions and those who commit such crimes are a small percentage in America, just as slave owners were a small percentage in the 19th century
I say that America's still the good guys despite this terribly cruel policy. Are you willing to condemn America for this evil practice of abortion? If not, you'd be just like the slave owners who had a different opinion on what was a legal practice in their time.
Now, Greg, do you begin to understand that things are far more complicated and messy than your narrative implies. And the complexity that I bring to the table evidently drives liberals nuts.
You are not being honest. How many babies have been slaughtered by Americans since our founding? How many slaughtered in all our wars, or wars we facilitated?
You only speak of things that directly apply to you, in your lifetime.
We are a country with a history, and being its citizens, its patriots, we are guardians of that history, both the positive and the negative.
If you cannot accept ALL our history, then do not call yourself an American.
Freon
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 27, 2020 20:04:41 GMT
Face it, Fids...when the conversation gets complicated, you're relegated to cheerleader.
No doubt you'd like to think of it as such .. Thing is when the thread appeared I started to bust your bubble (again) as I've done so often on this subject (any subject now that I think about it) but I wanted to see someone else .. someone as capable as myself .. rip your little fantasy to shreds. And they certainly stepped up to the plate, didn't they. They went through the same steps that you were incapable of countering that I've taken. Truth is the debunking of the Confederate apologist's alternate reality has become rather routine. Still you have to admit, the Confederate memorials dedication speeches were the icing on the cake.. délicieux .. Delightfully, save the sensibilities of a few other Confederate apologists posting, the facts that were methodically laid out left you nowhere to turn except to deny them without so much as a parry. You were left twisting in the wind like Lee's white flag.. The discussion is over. You failed again because you could not do otherwise.
As I've said .. At this point I'm more interested in why you reject such easily verifiable details. I'm convinced that there's little difference in your obstinacy and that of a religious fundamentalist. Did your life experiences render you so amateurish or is this a recent devolution?
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Post by Greg55_99 on Jul 27, 2020 20:05:40 GMT
3.9 MILLION people confined to forced labor camps, deprived of any rights and bred like cattle. To you, those are the good guys. Seriously? Greg In the U.S., sixty million children have been slaughtered in the last 37 years and still counting at a rate of 2000+ per day. Almost 20 million blacks butchered before birth since 1973.
That part of American culture today is pure evil, easily comparable to the deprivations of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Abortion is far, FAR worse than slavery, but is it fair that the whole of America must be judged evil by that standard? That's your "logic" above.
Slavery in the 19th century was just as legal and just as controversial as abortion is today. Abortions and those who commit such crimes are a small percentage in America, just as slave owners were a small percentage in the 19th century
I say that America's still the good guys despite this terribly cruel policy. Are you willing to condemn America for this evil practice of abortion? If not, you'd be just like the slave owners who had a different opinion on what was a legal practice in their time.
Now, Greg, do you begin to understand that things are far more complicated and messy than your narrative implies. And the complexity that I bring to the table evidently drives liberals nuts.
What a load of malarkey. There's nothing complicated about it. Southerners wanted to perpetuate forced enslavement of 3.9 MILLION human beings. That was the deal. They were not the good guys.
Greg
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 20:09:55 GMT
You are not being honest. How many babies have been slaughtered by Americans since our founding? How many slaughtered in all our wars, or wars we facilitated?
You only speak of things that directly apply to you, in your lifetime.
We are a country with a history, and being its citizens, its patriots, we are guardians of that history, both the positive and the negative.
If you cannot accept ALL our history, then do not call yourself an American.
Freon
You're still a hoot as always, Freon. Bless your heart.
Did you actually read what you just posted? I'm the one demanding that we accept and defend ALL of our history...that's what my Niemöller paraphrase is all about! Didn't you notice that?
YOU are the one defending the filth that's tearing down OUR history as a sign that they don't accept it. YOU are enabling that purging of history. YOU are supporting the speech and thought police leading today's cancel culture.
By your own logic, if you support those who tear down monuments and statues, YOU cannot call yourself an American.
Oops.
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 27, 2020 20:11:11 GMT
And the complexity that I bring to the table evidently drives liberals nuts. Hilarious.. You always find a way to appear even more obtuse. There is nothing complex about "We want to keep slaves" .. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:24:37 GMT
Face it, Fids...when the conversation gets complicated, you're relegated to cheerleader.
No doubt you'd like to think of it as such .. Thing is when the thread appeared I started to bust your bubble (again) as I've done so often on this subject (any subject now that I think about it) but I wanted to see someone else .. someone as capable as myself .. rip your little fantasy to shreds. And they certainly stepped up to the plate, didn't they. They went through the same steps that you were incapable of countering that I've taken. Truth is the debunking of the Confederate apologist's alternate reality has become rather routine. Still you have to admit, the Confederate memorials dedication speeches were the icing on the cake.. délicieux .. Delightfully, save the sensibilities of a few other Confederate apologists posting, the facts that were methodically laid out left you nowhere to turn except to deny them without so much as a parry. You were left twisting in the wind like Lee's white flag.. The discussion is over. You failed again because you could not do otherwise.
As I've said .. At this point I'm more interested in why you reject such easily verifiable details. I'm convinced that there's little difference in your obstinacy and that of a religious fundamentalist. Did your life experiences render you so amateurish or is this a recent devolution? As usual, you're all hat and no cattle. At each turn, I've laid waste to the logical fallacies that you and your alleged surrogates have tried to peddle in defense of the Northern propaganda. Evidence as thin and weak as yours is easily torn to pieces. You and your ilk are too easily triggered by the magic word/phrase to be objective observers and commentators.
You lost. They lost. You will lose again and again unless you wisely refrain from engaging with me on this subject. Don't feel too bad; no one who has tried has been successful. Like you, they cling to their shallow, cartoonish Yankee spawned narrative like a child's security blanket, and they pout and suck their dirty little thumbs when I expose them to the complexities that history has to offer.
As far a look at religious fervor, you might need your mirror. I'm the one labelled a heretic for daring to throw complexity and nuance at your Cult of Lincoln. Not a surprise that you would mistake my embrace of the whole truth and all of the facts for zealotry. It confirms that leftists like you are more concerned with the narrative than the truth.
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Post by atreyu on Jul 27, 2020 21:24:54 GMT
Maybe after all the confederate statues get torn down around courthouses we can address god references next.
Someday people might actually start thinking they'll get a fair trial.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 21:28:24 GMT
In the U.S., sixty million children have been slaughtered in the last 37 years and still counting at a rate of 2000+ per day. Almost 20 million blacks butchered before birth since 1973.
That part of American culture today is pure evil, easily comparable to the deprivations of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. Abortion is far, FAR worse than slavery, but is it fair that the whole of America must be judged evil by that standard? That's your "logic" above.
Slavery in the 19th century was just as legal and just as controversial as abortion is today. Abortions and those who commit such crimes are a small percentage in America, just as slave owners were a small percentage in the 19th century
I say that America's still the good guys despite this terribly cruel policy. Are you willing to condemn America for this evil practice of abortion? If not, you'd be just like the slave owners who had a different opinion on what was a legal practice in their time.
Now, Greg, do you begin to understand that things are far more complicated and messy than your narrative implies. And the complexity that I bring to the table evidently drives liberals nuts.
What a load of malarkey. There's nothing complicated about it. Southerners wanted to perpetuate forced enslavement of 3.9 MILLION human beings. That was the deal. They were not the good guys.
Greg
I always have to remember that I must always keep it simple for Greg. He doesn't get complicated stuff as we can painfully see above.
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