|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Sept 8, 2023 14:02:24 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe and It was the Universe? Or did God think of the Universe and then create It? Or did God actually give the Universe quite a lot of thought before creating It? What do you think?
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
Why is cause and effect limited to the spacetime of our universe? If the universe is embedded in higher dimensions, does that collapse or delete the subordinate dimensions? Like...if you move from "Flatworld" to 3-dimensional space, do the 2 dimensions of Flatworld cease to exist? That doesn't make any sense. I would suggest that our universe is contingent on the higher dimensions in which it is embedded. Eternity is not the "eternal now" in which cause and effect don't exist. |
|
bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,582
|
Post by bama beau on Sept 9, 2023 2:54:10 GMT
This is a great argument because if God does exist outside of space and time then He doesn't exist, which would mean that He had to conjure up space time in order to exist. IOW, to be made manifest. It does not follow that if God exists outside of space and time, then he doesn't exist. In fact, it's internally contradictory. I would argue that God didn't "conjure up space and time in order to exist," but that he created the physical universe as the context for his shared rule with mankind, an expression of love. God may share with us Creation, but at no point does He share rule. Unless you equate free will with autonomy. Is that what you're saying? |
|
bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,582
|
Post by bama beau on Sept 9, 2023 3:04:53 GMT
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
Why is cause and effect limited to the spacetime of our universe? If the universe is embedded in higher dimensions, does that collapse or delete the subordinate dimensions? Like...if you move from "Flatworld" to 3-dimensional space, do the 2 dimensions of Flatworld cease to exist? That doesn't make any sense. I would suggest that our universe is contingent on the higher dimensions in which it is embedded. Eternity is not the "eternal now" in which cause and effect don't exist. If "cause and effect" do exist, then they exist simultaneously. From before time, and into forever. Cause and effect are only properties of space/time if you have evolved to perceive both spatially and temporally, which you have. What then is eternity? If not the eternal now? |
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Sept 9, 2023 11:07:06 GMT
Patronizing, smug and contemptuous... That's why it's impossible to discuss anything with you. Is it possible for you to have a discussion with anyone on here? So.. how long have I been living rent free in what's left of your mind, dumbass? |
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Sept 9, 2023 11:15:35 GMT
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
Why is cause and effect limited to the spacetime of our universe? If the universe is embedded in higher dimensions, does that collapse or delete the subordinate dimensions? Like...if you move from "Flatworld" to 3-dimensional space, do the 2 dimensions of Flatworld cease to exist? That doesn't make any sense. I would suggest that our universe is contingent on the higher dimensions in which it is embedded. Eternity is not the "eternal now" in which cause and effect don't exist. Because outside of time, means outside of time, idiot! It's not outside of OUR time, it's outside of time! Got it? If there is time, whether it is one dimension or ten dimensions, it's not outside of time! Outside of time, there is no cause and no effect because NOTHING happens... That's what time means, it means a dimension (or several) along which events can happen. So if god is outside of time, at best he's is stationary, unmoving, at worst he simply doesn't exist at all!!! Now go ahead and quibble about matters you only marginally understand!!! |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Sept 9, 2023 18:06:47 GMT
It does not follow that if God exists outside of space and time, then he doesn't exist. In fact, it's internally contradictory. I would argue that God didn't "conjure up space and time in order to exist," but that he created the physical universe as the context for his shared rule with mankind, an expression of love. God may share with us Creation, but at no point does He share rule. Unless you equate free will with autonomy. Is that what you're saying? No, his intent was to share rule…that’s part of the meaning of “image of God” and how and why Jesus, as the true “image of God” is “exalted to the highest place.” |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Sept 9, 2023 18:08:39 GMT
Why is cause and effect limited to the spacetime of our universe? If the universe is embedded in higher dimensions, does that collapse or delete the subordinate dimensions? Like...if you move from "Flatworld" to 3-dimensional space, do the 2 dimensions of Flatworld cease to exist? That doesn't make any sense. I would suggest that our universe is contingent on the higher dimensions in which it is embedded. Eternity is not the "eternal now" in which cause and effect don't exist. If "cause and effect" do exist, then they exist simultaneously. From before time, and into forever. Cause and effect are only properties of space/time if you have evolved to perceive both spatially and temporally, which you have. What then is eternity? If not the eternal now? Eternity is a greater, not lesser, dimension compared to time. It includes time but is not limited by it. To call eternity “the eternal now” is akin to a dot compared to a line. It’s not. It’s three-dimensional space compared to a line or a plane. |
|
|
|
Post by Running Deer on Sept 9, 2023 20:28:25 GMT
You do understand, don’t you, that the originator of the Big Bang theory was a Catholic priest? You also understand that the Big Bang begs the question as to the origin of the Big Bang I would say "raises the question", not "begs" it. The Big Bang Theory does not assume the truth of the origin of the Big Bang. Unfortunately true. It may even be impossible to verify. I wouldn't say a problem. It's an open question or a mystery, perhaps forever, perhaps not. You are quite right that science has nothing to say for or against the existence of God. Science builds models of how the physical universe operates. The existence of God is irrelevant to its work, and if God is defined as Not the Physical Universe, science literally cannot say anything. Science can provide better literal explanations of natural phenomena than religious stories. Of course it should! But then again, many religious people do not take their stories as literal descriptions of the operation of the universe, and there is no reason they have to. The Catholic Church - no one's idea of a den of atheists - accepts evolution, teaches it as biology in their schools and universities, and now produces many excellent scientists. However, I do wonder when they're going to revisit the doctrine of original sin in light of Adam & Eve's non-existence. |
|
|
|
Post by william on Sept 13, 2023 19:03:58 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe and It was the Universe? Or did God think of the Universe and then create It? Or did God actually give the Universe quite a lot of thought before creating It? What do you think? I wrote a paper for philosophy class some 50 years ago hypothesising that God created an infinite number of universes by simply imagining each while in search of a perfect universe. goofy college kid |
|
|
|
Post by Mercy for All on Sept 13, 2023 20:25:37 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe and It was the Universe? Or did God think of the Universe and then create It? Or did God actually give the Universe quite a lot of thought before creating It? What do you think? I wrote a paper for philosophy class some 50 years ago hypothesising that God created an infinite number of universes by simply imagining each while in search of a perfect universe. goofy college kid Not that goofy. I've read sci-fi stories with a similar idea. |
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Sept 14, 2023 9:50:12 GMT
I wrote a paper for philosophy class some 50 years ago hypothesising that God created an infinite number of universes by simply imagining each while in search of a perfect universe. goofy college kid Not that goofy. I've read sci-fi stories with a similar idea. Yeah, because goofy ideas never make it to sci-fi stories... especially the theistic ones... Idiot! |
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Sept 14, 2023 9:54:37 GMT
I wrote a paper for philosophy class some 50 years ago hypothesising that God created an infinite number of universes by simply imagining each while in search of a perfect universe. goofy college kid Not that goofy. I've read sci-fi stories with a similar idea. A being with magical powers that allow it to create things by just imagining them is goofy enough, moron!!! |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,112
|
Post by Odysseus on Sept 21, 2023 2:37:53 GMT
Does God think?
Yes, I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Oct 2, 2023 16:23:31 GMT
Does God think?
Yes, I think.
Thoughts are meant to acquire information, either by processing data from our senses or by making deductions while reexamining previous memories or a combination of the two. God is supposed to know everything already, so no he wouldn't think. That wouldn't make sense. But very little makes sense when it comes to religion. So whatever... |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,112
|
Post by Odysseus on Oct 6, 2023 21:42:44 GMT
Does God think?
Yes, I think.
Thoughts are meant to acquire information, either by processing data from our senses or by making deductions while reexamining previous memories or a combination of the two. God is supposed to know everything already, so no he wouldn't think. That wouldn't make sense. But very little makes sense when it comes to religion. So whatever...
Well, I meant my statement as a sort of joke.
Of course, some may be of the opinion that no religion can tolerate joking.
Which could therefore obliviate the Divine Comedy.
|
|
bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,582
|
Post by bama beau on Oct 7, 2023 6:06:25 GMT
If "cause and effect" do exist, then they exist simultaneously. From before time, and into forever. Cause and effect are only properties of space/time if you have evolved to perceive both spatially and temporally, which you have. What then is eternity? If not the eternal now? Eternity is a greater, not lesser, dimension compared to time. It includes time but is not limited by it. To call eternity “the eternal now” is akin to a dot compared to a line. It’s not. It’s three-dimensional space compared to a line or a plane. I agree, but more importantly, I like the way you think even when I don't agree with you. |
|
