bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Apr 8, 2021 23:36:41 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe
and It was the Universe? Or did God think
of the Universe and then create It? Or did
God actually give the Universe quite a lot of
thought before creating It? What do you think?
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Post by atreyu on Apr 9, 2021 21:47:55 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe and It was the Universe? Or did God think of the Universe and then create It? Or did God actually give the Universe quite a lot of thought before creating It? What do you think?
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Apr 10, 2021 5:16:35 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe and It was the Universe? Or did God think of the Universe and then create It? Or did God actually give the Universe quite a lot of thought before creating It? What do you think?
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
+1
Admin, feel free to close the thread. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 11, 2021 19:28:47 GMT
And if so, did God think of the Universe and It was the Universe? Or did God think of the Universe and then create It? Or did God actually give the Universe quite a lot of thought before creating It? What do you think?
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
Erroneous and illogical. That’s like a Flatlander assuming there is no lateral motion in three-dimensional space. Consider abstractly that “eternity” is a “higher” or “additional dimension.” Why would what is possible and normal in time as we know it be impossible in eternity? |
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Post by atreyu on Apr 11, 2021 19:38:35 GMT
According to others here, god exists outside of time and space. If you exist outside of time there is no cause and no effect. There is no time for anything to happen, including thought.
So I don't think a god or gods thought anything at all.
Thinking would also imply that a god is not all powerful.
Erroneous and illogical. That’s like a Flatlander assuming there is no lateral motion in three-dimensional space. Consider abstractly that “eternity” is a “higher” or “additional dimension.” Why would what is possible and normal in time as we know it be impossible in eternity?
It's usually specified in that way. Outside time and space. It's usually to refute the "big bang" origin of the universe.
I can't speculate on other things there is no evidence for or against.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 12, 2021 14:16:30 GMT
Erroneous and illogical. That’s like a Flatlander assuming there is no lateral motion in three-dimensional space. Consider abstractly that “eternity” is a “higher” or “additional dimension.” Why would what is possible and normal in time as we know it be impossible in eternity?
It's usually specified in that way. Outside time and space. It's usually to refute the "big bang" origin of the universe.
I can't speculate on other things there is no evidence for or against.
Sure. But the argument itself is speculation--and based on flawed logic. |
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Post by Fiddler on Apr 12, 2021 14:39:16 GMT
No.. Being omniscient ... everything there is to think has been thought.
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Post by atreyu on Apr 12, 2021 20:44:51 GMT
No.. Being omniscient ... everything there is to think has been thought.
But that would require and infinite about of time and energy oh dear, I've got cross-eyed.
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Post by atreyu on Apr 12, 2021 20:47:30 GMT
It's usually specified in that way. Outside time and space. It's usually to refute the "big bang" origin of the universe.
I can't speculate on other things there is no evidence for or against.
Sure. But the argument itself is speculation--and based on flawed logic.
I don't think so. We're talking about 0 dimensions and 0 time. Well defined ideas. Once you try to make something happen without those things, you can't by definition.
A dimension is a thing, higher dimensional or not, time is a thing and there was supposed to be "nothing".
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 12, 2021 21:13:40 GMT
Sure. But the argument itself is speculation--and based on flawed logic.
I don't think so. We're talking about 0 dimensions and 0 time. Well defined ideas. Once you try to make something happen without those things, you can't by definition.
A dimension is a thing, higher dimensional or not, time is a thing and there was supposed to be "nothing".
Well, that's exactly the problem. Why is "eternity outside the universe" zero dimensions? Why is the universe not emerging from "more" or "higher" dimensions? Remember that the conversation presumes God's existence ("does God think"). God presumable exists in eternity...not in "zero dimensions." It is absurd to presume that eternity is "less than" time or space or both. |
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Post by atreyu on Apr 13, 2021 1:45:43 GMT
I don't think so. We're talking about 0 dimensions and 0 time. Well defined ideas. Once you try to make something happen without those things, you can't by definition.
A dimension is a thing, higher dimensional or not, time is a thing and there was supposed to be "nothing".
Well, that's exactly the problem. Why is "eternity outside the universe" zero dimensions? Why is the universe not emerging from "more" or "higher" dimensions? Remember that the conversation presumes God's existence ("does God think"). God presumable exists in eternity...not in "zero dimensions." It is absurd to presume that eternity is "less than" time or space or both.
For me it's simple, it's the definitions of words. Nothing is defined as no space and no time. No dimensions.
The universe could emerge from a higher dimensional bulk, but again, that's something, not nothing.
You'd have me if any religious doctrine stated that in the beginning there was only a higher dimensional bulk space in which lower three dimensional space time was spontaneously created due to quantum fluctuations. Then diving into the descriptions of what makes these possible and testable.
Unfortunately, religious material, like all material is just a product of what people understood at the time it was written. It's never the product of a superior mind.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 13, 2021 2:05:26 GMT
Well, that's exactly the problem. Why is "eternity outside the universe" zero dimensions? Why is the universe not emerging from "more" or "higher" dimensions? Remember that the conversation presumes God's existence ("does God think"). God presumable exists in eternity...not in "zero dimensions." It is absurd to presume that eternity is "less than" time or space or both.
For me it's simple, it's the definitions of words. Nothing is defined as no space and no time. No dimensions.
The universe could emerge from a higher dimensional bulk, but again, that's something, not nothing.
You'd have me if any religious doctrine stated that in the beginning there was only a higher dimensional bulk space in which lower three dimensional space time was spontaneously created due to quantum fluctuations. Then diving into the descriptions of what makes these possible and testable.
Unfortunately, religious material, like all material is just a product of what people understood at the time it was written. It's never the product of a superior mind. That's a presumption based on a naturalistic and scientifically mechanical worldview, I would bet. There's as much evidence for the universe "starting from something" as "starting from nothing." Actually...more, since there isn't "nothing." If universes emerge from quantum fluctuations, that's not "nothing." The Bible begins with "In the beginning God..." That by itself does not "mean" a higher dimensional bulk space...etc. But it's not incongruous with that. God exists outside of spacetime in eternity. That's a common Christian understanding. Heck, as far back as the 300s CE Augustine deduced that when God created the universe, he created time. The error many Christians make (including the likes of C.S. Lewis) is presuming that "eternity" is "the eternal now," a reduction of dimensions rather than an expansion. To me, as I said, that's absurd. Eternity is to "time" as 3-dimensional space is to 2-dimensional space. It's not "the eternal now" although every "now" is equally accessible. |
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Apr 13, 2021 6:03:18 GMT
For me it's simple, it's the definitions of words. Nothing is defined as no space and no time. No dimensions.
The universe could emerge from a higher dimensional bulk, but again, that's something, not nothing.
You'd have me if any religious doctrine stated that in the beginning there was only a higher dimensional bulk space in which lower three dimensional space time was spontaneously created due to quantum fluctuations. Then diving into the descriptions of what makes these possible and testable.
Unfortunately, religious material, like all material is just a product of what people understood at the time it was written. It's never the product of a superior mind. That's a presumption based on a naturalistic and scientifically mechanical worldview, I would bet. There's as much evidence for the universe "starting from something" as "starting from nothing." Actually...more, since there isn't "nothing." If universes emerge from quantum fluctuations, that's not "nothing." The Bible begins with "In the beginning God..." That by itself does not "mean" a higher dimensional bulk space...etc. But it's not incongruous with that. God exists outside of spacetime in eternity. That's a common Christian understanding. Heck, as far back as the 300s CE Augustine deduced that when God created the universe, he created time. The error many Christians make (including the likes of C.S. Lewis) is presuming that "eternity" is "the eternal now," a reduction of dimensions rather than an expansion. To me, as I said, that's absurd. Eternity is to "time" as 3-dimensional space is to 2-dimensional space. It's not "the eternal now" although every "now" is equally accessible. I might recommend McGinn's primer Early Christian Mystics here. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 13, 2021 21:19:59 GMT
That's a presumption based on a naturalistic and scientifically mechanical worldview, I would bet. There's as much evidence for the universe "starting from something" as "starting from nothing." Actually...more, since there isn't "nothing." If universes emerge from quantum fluctuations, that's not "nothing." The Bible begins with "In the beginning God..." That by itself does not "mean" a higher dimensional bulk space...etc. But it's not incongruous with that. God exists outside of spacetime in eternity. That's a common Christian understanding. Heck, as far back as the 300s CE Augustine deduced that when God created the universe, he created time. The error many Christians make (including the likes of C.S. Lewis) is presuming that "eternity" is "the eternal now," a reduction of dimensions rather than an expansion. To me, as I said, that's absurd. Eternity is to "time" as 3-dimensional space is to 2-dimensional space. It's not "the eternal now" although every "now" is equally accessible. I might recommend McGinn's primer Early Christian Mystics here. Well, and i might just take that recommendation. |
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Post by atreyu on Apr 15, 2021 0:56:48 GMT
For me it's simple, it's the definitions of words. Nothing is defined as no space and no time. No dimensions.
The universe could emerge from a higher dimensional bulk, but again, that's something, not nothing.
You'd have me if any religious doctrine stated that in the beginning there was only a higher dimensional bulk space in which lower three dimensional space time was spontaneously created due to quantum fluctuations. Then diving into the descriptions of what makes these possible and testable.
Unfortunately, religious material, like all material is just a product of what people understood at the time it was written. It's never the product of a superior mind. That's a presumption based on a naturalistic and scientifically mechanical worldview, I would bet. There's as much evidence for the universe "starting from something" as "starting from nothing." Actually...more, since there isn't "nothing." If universes emerge from quantum fluctuations, that's not "nothing." The Bible begins with "In the beginning God..." That by itself does not "mean" a higher dimensional bulk space...etc. But it's not incongruous with that. God exists outside of spacetime in eternity. That's a common Christian understanding. Heck, as far back as the 300s CE Augustine deduced that when God created the universe, he created time. The error many Christians make (including the likes of C.S. Lewis) is presuming that "eternity" is "the eternal now," a reduction of dimensions rather than an expansion. To me, as I said, that's absurd. Eternity is to "time" as 3-dimensional space is to 2-dimensional space. It's not "the eternal now" although every "now" is equally accessible.
I think we're right back to where we were at. How does something exist in nothing? Existing outside of spacetime is by definition exactly that.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 15, 2021 12:52:21 GMT
That's a presumption based on a naturalistic and scientifically mechanical worldview, I would bet. There's as much evidence for the universe "starting from something" as "starting from nothing." Actually...more, since there isn't "nothing." If universes emerge from quantum fluctuations, that's not "nothing." The Bible begins with "In the beginning God..." That by itself does not "mean" a higher dimensional bulk space...etc. But it's not incongruous with that. God exists outside of spacetime in eternity. That's a common Christian understanding. Heck, as far back as the 300s CE Augustine deduced that when God created the universe, he created time. The error many Christians make (including the likes of C.S. Lewis) is presuming that "eternity" is "the eternal now," a reduction of dimensions rather than an expansion. To me, as I said, that's absurd. Eternity is to "time" as 3-dimensional space is to 2-dimensional space. It's not "the eternal now" although every "now" is equally accessible.
I think we're right back to where we were at. How does something exist in nothing? Existing outside of spacetime is by definition exactly that. That's unprovable. And it's also "not nothing." A "quantum foam of virtual particles out of which a universe might spontaneously emerge" is not "nothing." You're simply betraying a naturalist or materialist bias--that is, you're presuming that naturalism or materialism is the ultimate basis or foundation of "what is." You're taking that...on faith. Because neither you nor anyone else can prove your claim. |
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Post by atreyu on Apr 15, 2021 16:34:36 GMT
I think we're right back to where we were at. How does something exist in nothing? Existing outside of spacetime is by definition exactly that. That's unprovable. And it's also "not nothing." A "quantum foam of virtual particles out of which a universe might spontaneously emerge" is not "nothing." You're simply betraying a naturalist or materialist bias--that is, you're presuming that naturalism or materialism is the ultimate basis or foundation of "what is." You're taking that...on faith. Because neither you nor anyone else can prove your claim.
I'm going with the biblical claim of nothing. If the bible said a quantum foam of virtual particles, then I'd possibly agree with you.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 15, 2021 17:08:33 GMT
That's unprovable. And it's also "not nothing." A "quantum foam of virtual particles out of which a universe might spontaneously emerge" is not "nothing." You're simply betraying a naturalist or materialist bias--that is, you're presuming that naturalism or materialism is the ultimate basis or foundation of "what is." You're taking that...on faith. Because neither you nor anyone else can prove your claim.
I'm going with the biblical claim of nothing. If the bible said a quantum foam of virtual particles, then I'd possibly agree with you.
Okay...we're talking past each other. 1) In the materialist/naturalist position there is no "nothing." There is a quantum foam of virtual particles (presumably--can't be proven physically, but the theory seems sound). 2) In the biblical position, there is no "nothing." There is God, present in eternity. |
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Post by atreyu on Apr 15, 2021 20:34:47 GMT
I'm going with the biblical claim of nothing. If the bible said a quantum foam of virtual particles, then I'd possibly agree with you.
Okay...we're talking past each other. 1) In the materialist/naturalist position there is no "nothing." There is a quantum foam of virtual particles (presumably--can't be proven physically, but the theory seems sound). 2) In the biblical position, there is no "nothing." There is God, present in eternity.
I would say that the real position of a "materialist/naturalist" is "We don't know yet.". It's one model of many.
What is certain is that if there are no dimensions to move in and no entropy changing, it's impossible to anything to move or exist. What I'm really saying is that there is a direct conflict between theology and science.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 16, 2021 2:05:58 GMT
Okay...we're talking past each other. 1) In the materialist/naturalist position there is no "nothing." There is a quantum foam of virtual particles (presumably--can't be proven physically, but the theory seems sound). 2) In the biblical position, there is no "nothing." There is God, present in eternity.
I would say that the real position of a "materialist/naturalist" is "We don't know yet.". It's one model of many.
What is certain is that if there are no dimensions to move in and no entropy changing, it's impossible to anything to move or exist. What I'm really saying is that there is a direct conflict between theology and science.
You've missed my argument from the beginning. Who says "there are no dimensions to move in"? "Eternity" would be an order of dimensions higher than time. Eternity to time should be akin to three dimensions to two dimensions. If a "two-dimensional entity" moves from two-dimensions to three-dimensions, does it have less capability of movement? Or more? It's absurd to presume that the eternity, in which our timeline is embedded, is some kind of "timeless," as in, a "single point of time." You could argue that we experience time along two dimensions--there is past and there is future (although we can only move in one "direction" in time). A single moment would be "one dimension of time." Our experience is a "line"--two dimensions of time. Eternity should be (at least) three "dimensions in time." Which means that it is not static, or a single "timeless moment." That conjecture is absurd. |
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