Post by Mercy for All on Jul 22, 2020 21:21:33 GMT
I'm not sure it's "supposed to work." There is a basic idea that prayer is "asking for and getting what you want." It's not a good idea. What you want changes almost arbitrarily and many times, it's not even that what you want isn't what you really need, it's that what you want is actually bad for you.
There's a less basic idea that part of prayer is "declaring what should be and then it will happen." That's what is going on here. At least, that is what Kenneth Copeland is attempting. At some level, I think it might be true...if God tells someone to "declare something so then it will happen," well then...it should happen. If it doesn't, then I have a pretty strong suspicion that God didn't say it. The proof is in the pudding.
But Copeland walks in that "prosperity gospel" stream that implies that everyone who is "doing it properly" will be wealthy and healthy. And of course, it's self-confirming. If you're not healthy and wealthy, then you're obviously "doing it wrong." At the root of it is not a faith in God, it's a "faith in faith" (if by "faith" you mean, the ability to suspend any doubt whatsoever; your "positive confession" will guarantee that what you want will come true).
Not a lot of self-sacrifice there, or walking in Jesus footsteps in self-denial. If you "do it right" (which usually means manipulating people to give you money so God will bless them in return 10-fold), then you get your own private jet.
And videos like this which are creepy, and make a mockery of following Jesus. The worst is the zombie-like repetition of Copeland's words by his...what...minions? Creepy. That said, it's great for making video remixes. There are quite a few on YouTube, and most are pretty good.
Yeah, not a huge of fan of Copeland. BUT...a weird thing happened. Typically, if you need money, you are challenged to "send him money" (see above). But I have a good friend a planted a new church a couple of years ago. That's a rough go and there's not a lot of money in it. Not a lot at all. But last month he got a cheque in the mail that came out of nowhere--$1000 from Kenneth Copeland ministries, no strings attached. So maybe he's changing...?
I'm not sure it's "supposed to work." There is a basic idea that prayer is "asking for and getting what you want." It's not a good idea. What you want changes almost arbitrarily and many times, it's not even that what you want isn't what you really need, it's that what you want is actually bad for you.
There's a less basic idea that part of prayer is "declaring what should be and then it will happen." That's what is going on here. At least, that is what Kenneth Copeland is attempting. At some level, I think it might be true...if God tells someone to "declare something so then it will happen," well then...it should happen. If it doesn't, then I have a pretty strong suspicion that God didn't say it. The proof is in the pudding.
But Copeland walks in that "prosperity gospel" stream that implies that everyone who is "doing it properly" will be wealthy and healthy. And of course, it's self-confirming. If you're not healthy and wealthy, then you're obviously "doing it wrong." At the root of it is not a faith in God, it's a "faith in faith" (if by "faith" you mean, the ability to suspend any doubt whatsoever; your "positive confession" will guarantee that what you want will come true).
Not a lot of self-sacrifice there, or walking in Jesus footsteps in self-denial. If you "do it right" (which usually means manipulating people to give you money so God will bless them in return 10-fold), then you get your own private jet.
And videos like this which are creepy, and make a mockery of following Jesus. The worst is the zombie-like repetition of Copeland's words by his...what...minions? Creepy. That said, it's great for making video remixes. There are quite a few on YouTube, and most are pretty good.
Yeah, not a huge of fan of Copeland. BUT...a weird thing happened. Typically, if you need money, you are challenged to "send him money" (see above). But I have a good friend a planted a new church a couple of years ago. That's a rough go and there's not a lot of money in it. Not a lot at all. But last month he got a cheque in the mail that came out of nowhere--$1000 from Kenneth Copeland ministries, no strings attached. So maybe he's changing...?
So Copeland might be changing from a deranged huckster into what?
There is absolutely no defending charlatans like him. He is an example of the worst of a so-called religion.
I'm not sure it's "supposed to work." There is a basic idea that prayer is "asking for and getting what you want." It's not a good idea. What you want changes almost arbitrarily and many times, it's not even that what you want isn't what you really need, it's that what you want is actually bad for you.
There's a less basic idea that part of prayer is "declaring what should be and then it will happen." That's what is going on here. At least, that is what Kenneth Copeland is attempting. At some level, I think it might be true...if God tells someone to "declare something so then it will happen," well then...it should happen. If it doesn't, then I have a pretty strong suspicion that God didn't say it. The proof is in the pudding.
But Copeland walks in that "prosperity gospel" stream that implies that everyone who is "doing it properly" will be wealthy and healthy. And of course, it's self-confirming. If you're not healthy and wealthy, then you're obviously "doing it wrong." At the root of it is not a faith in God, it's a "faith in faith" (if by "faith" you mean, the ability to suspend any doubt whatsoever; your "positive confession" will guarantee that what you want will come true).
Not a lot of self-sacrifice there, or walking in Jesus footsteps in self-denial. If you "do it right" (which usually means manipulating people to give you money so God will bless them in return 10-fold), then you get your own private jet.
And videos like this which are creepy, and make a mockery of following Jesus. The worst is the zombie-like repetition of Copeland's words by his...what...minions? Creepy. That said, it's great for making video remixes. There are quite a few on YouTube, and most are pretty good.
Yeah, not a huge of fan of Copeland. BUT...a weird thing happened. Typically, if you need money, you are challenged to "send him money" (see above). But I have a good friend a planted a new church a couple of years ago. That's a rough go and there's not a lot of money in it. Not a lot at all. But last month he got a cheque in the mail that came out of nowhere--$1000 from Kenneth Copeland ministries, no strings attached. So maybe he's changing...?
I am absolutely not a Copeland fan. He's one of those all show and no substance people. This is the perfect example of that.
But I really want to address what you said about prayer. Your two points are common misconceptions about prayer. God is not an ATM, Genie or Amazon Wish List. How and why we pray is best understood by studying the Lord's Prayer.
So it really bugs me when people say we either ask for stuff or vote for stuff (to over simplify what you said). Prayer should be about connecting to God, trying to understand God's plan (if only a very small portion of it), and living up to God's expectations (even if that isn't completely possible).
A better prayer would have been; "Lord, thank you for another day in your kingdom on Earth. I pray that those that are infected with the virus find healing in both body and soul. I pray that soon we will come to understand this plague and recognize the good that can and will come from it. In your name we pray. Amen."
I'm thinking the second to fourth lines are parallel, each completed by the fifth. Like this:
"Hallowed be thy Name (on earth as it is in heaven), Thy Kingdom come (on earth as it is in heaven), Thy will be done (on earth as it is in heaven)..."
I'm not sure it's "supposed to work." There is a basic idea that prayer is "asking for and getting what you want." It's not a good idea. What you want changes almost arbitrarily and many times, it's not even that what you want isn't what you really need, it's that what you want is actually bad for you.
There's a less basic idea that part of prayer is "declaring what should be and then it will happen." That's what is going on here. At least, that is what Kenneth Copeland is attempting. At some level, I think it might be true...if God tells someone to "declare something so then it will happen," well then...it should happen. If it doesn't, then I have a pretty strong suspicion that God didn't say it. The proof is in the pudding.
But Copeland walks in that "prosperity gospel" stream that implies that everyone who is "doing it properly" will be wealthy and healthy. And of course, it's self-confirming. If you're not healthy and wealthy, then you're obviously "doing it wrong." At the root of it is not a faith in God, it's a "faith in faith" (if by "faith" you mean, the ability to suspend any doubt whatsoever; your "positive confession" will guarantee that what you want will come true).
Not a lot of self-sacrifice there, or walking in Jesus footsteps in self-denial. If you "do it right" (which usually means manipulating people to give you money so God will bless them in return 10-fold), then you get your own private jet.
And videos like this which are creepy, and make a mockery of following Jesus. The worst is the zombie-like repetition of Copeland's words by his...what...minions? Creepy. That said, it's great for making video remixes. There are quite a few on YouTube, and most are pretty good.
Yeah, not a huge of fan of Copeland. BUT...a weird thing happened. Typically, if you need money, you are challenged to "send him money" (see above). But I have a good friend a planted a new church a couple of years ago. That's a rough go and there's not a lot of money in it. Not a lot at all. But last month he got a cheque in the mail that came out of nowhere--$1000 from Kenneth Copeland ministries, no strings attached. So maybe he's changing...?
I am absolutely not a Copeland fan. He's one of those all show and no substance people. This is the perfect example of that.
But I really want to address what you said about prayer. Your two points are common misconceptions about prayer. God is not an ATM, Genie or Amazon Wish List. How and why we pray is best understood by studying the Lord's Prayer.
So it really bugs me when people say we either ask for stuff or vote for stuff (to over simplify what you said). Prayer should be about connecting to God, trying to understand God's plan (if only a very small portion of it), and living up to God's expectations (even if that isn't completely possible).
A better prayer would have been; "Lord, thank you for another day in your kingdom on Earth. I pray that those that are infected with the virus find healing in both body and soul. I pray that soon we will come to understand this plague and recognize the good that can and will come from it. In your name we pray. Amen."
It's not often (this is a first) that I've been able to say anything good about one of your posts, but this may be one of the very few Christian things that I have heard a christian say in a very long time. But then again, I may be reading something into it that you didn't intend.
I don't necessarily believe the following, but some who consider themselves true Christians apparently do:
"Every time you pray the “Lord’s Prayer,” the devil is happy. Why? Well, you are reversing what Jesus has already acquired for you on the cross because you are again praying for the conditions of the Old Covenant. I don’t want to know how Jesus, who was tortured and slaughtered as our sacrificial lamb, feels about that."
I don't necessarily believe the following, but some who consider themselves true Christians apparently do:
"Every time you pray the “Lord’s Prayer,” the devil is happy. Why? Well, you are reversing what Jesus has already acquired for you on the cross because you are again praying for the conditions of the Old Covenant. I don’t want to know how Jesus, who was tortured and slaughtered as our sacrificial lamb, feels about that."
Interesting that the early Church chose to record his words and perpetuate them after the crucifixion/resurrection. They must have been wrong to do so...?
This is a really weird perspective, especially since other places in the New Testament suggest that confession of sins for forgiveness is still an ongoing process.
For example, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8-9). Once again, this was written after Jesus's death and resurrection. Of course, it's possible that these early eyewitnesses are wrong and faithgracejesus.com is right...?
Last Edit: Aug 8, 2020 15:33:27 GMT by Mercy for All
I don't necessarily believe the following, but some who consider themselves true Christians apparently do:
"Every time you pray the “Lord’s Prayer,” the devil is happy. Why? Well, you are reversing what Jesus has already acquired for you on the cross because you are again praying for the conditions of the Old Covenant. I don’t want to know how Jesus, who was tortured and slaughtered as our sacrificial lamb, feels about that."
Interesting that the early Church chose to record his words and perpetuate them after the crucifixion/resurrection. They must have been wrong to do so...?
This is a really weird perspective, especially since other places in the New Testament suggest that confession of sins for forgiveness is still an ongoing process.
For example, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:8-9). Once again, this was written after Jesus's death and resurrection. Of course, it's possible that these early eyewitnesses are wrong and faithgracejesus.com is right...?
I dunno.
I've always had the impression that good works is central to Christian ideology.
But these Gracefaith people seem to be saying that good works are immaterial; all you gotta do is believe in the divinity of Christ.
This might help explain all the bloodshed from Christian holy wars, though.
“Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.” ― George Bernard Shaw
I've always had the impression that good works is central to Christian ideology.
But these Gracefaith people seem to be saying that good works are immaterial; all you gotta do is believe in the divinity of Christ.
This might help explain all the bloodshed from Christian holy wars, though.
There is (or should be) a direct correlation between what you believe and how you act. It doesn't matter what you say you believe. What you truly believe is demonstrated by how you act.
Further, how you act demonstrates what you believe about God.
I've always had the impression that good works is central to Christian ideology.
But these Gracefaith people seem to be saying that good works are immaterial; all you gotta do is believe in the divinity of Christ.
This might help explain all the bloodshed from Christian holy wars, though.
There is (or should be) a direct correlation between what you believe and how you act. It doesn't matter what you say you believe. What you truly believe is demonstrated by how you act.
Further, how you act demonstrates what you believe about God.
What if you believe that the way you act doesn't matter?
What if you believe that the way you act doesn't matter?
Nobody believes that. Except people that curl up into a ball and die. And those aren't many.
At the very least, we act to avoid pain.
Or...do you mean...what if you believe that "God doesn't care how you act"?
No, I think there is a slight case of miscommunication here. What if you believe that, in the absolute, the way you act doesn't matter? Meaning: Whatever you do the result will be exactly the same. You may do things to make your life more comfortable, which is basically what everyone does, but it's only a temporary fix, say one hundred years from now you'll be in the exact same state no matter what you did today. I am not sure you'll get my meaning precisely given your current state of mind but hope springs eternal. It may make you life more comfortable to help people less fortunate for example. It will make you feel better about yourself but some people won't see it that way and them you'll never catch them doing anything to help someone else. For some people leaving descendants after they're dead is important, to others it doesn't matter in the least. But if humanity goes extinct then it won't matter one bit whether you have descendants or not no matter how important it seems to you now. So yeah, you do things now to increase your comfort and that's all it is. When a Samurai in the old days of Japan made some important transgression( like failing to obey an order given him by the Shogun, no matter his excuse, like maybe he was sick as a dog and couldn't even stand) he had to take his own life in a very gruesome way, but he did it, because the alternative was (to him) worse. So even that Samurai, when he took his life, he did it to increase his comfort.
No, I think there is a slight case of miscommunication here. What if you believe that, in the absolute, the way you act doesn't matter? Meaning: Whatever you do the result will be exactly the same. You may do things to make your life more comfortable, which is basically what everyone does, but it's only a temporary fix, say one hundred years from now you'll be in the exact same state no matter what you did today. I am not sure you'll get my meaning precisely given your current state of mind but hope springs eternal. It may make you life more comfortable to help people less fortunate for example. It will make you feel better about yourself but some people won't see it that way and them you'll never catch them doing anything to help someone else. For some people leaving descendants after they're dead is important, to others it doesn't matter in the least. But if humanity goes extinct then it won't matter one bit whether you have descendants or not no matter how important it seems to you now. So yeah, you do things now to increase your comfort and that's all it is. When a Samurai in the old days of Japan made some important transgression( like failing to obey an order given him by the Shogun, no matter his excuse, like maybe he was sick as a dog and couldn't even stand) he had to take his own life in a very gruesome way, but he did it, because the alternative was (to him) worse. So even that Samurai, when he took his life, he did it to increase his comfort.
Are you asking...what if what you do doesn't matter in the long run? But it still matters now (i.e., if only to avoid pain).
There's a difference between "nothing ultimately matters in the long run" and "nothing matters at all."
As you say it's just a matter of reducing pain, aka increasing our comfort. In that respect we're no different than any other living thing. We may do things more elaborately, more complexly but our goal is essentially the same. However, nothing we do really matters. Millions of people did things in the past and no one even remembers. Some were courageous, some were criminals, some tried to help as many people as they could, but they are gone, the people they helped are gone, the people they oppressed are gone, nothing is left. One day you'll be exactly like these people. I mean when the sun will turn into a red giant, the Earth will be vaporized, not even Shakespeare will be remembered and there won't anything left for even alien archeologists to analyse. So if you think what you do now matters, you're wrong. It doesn't.
As you say it's just a matter of reducing pain, aka increasing our comfort. In that respect we're no different than any other living thing. We may do things more elaborately, more complexly but our goal is essentially the same. However, nothing we do really matters. Millions of people did things in the past and no one even remembers. Some were courageous, some were criminals, some tried to help as many people as they could, but they are gone, the people they helped are gone, the people they oppressed are gone, nothing is left. One day you'll be exactly like these people. I mean when the sun will turn into a red giant, the Earth will be vaporized, not even Shakespeare will be remembered and there won't anything left for even alien archeologists to analyse. So if you think what you do now matters, you're wrong. It doesn't.
1. I disagree.
2. I'll address the fact that it matters now. Is the playing of a symphony pointless since once it's over, it's over? Why play it at all?
As you say it's just a matter of reducing pain, aka increasing our comfort. In that respect we're no different than any other living thing. We may do things more elaborately, more complexly but our goal is essentially the same. However, nothing we do really matters. Millions of people did things in the past and no one even remembers. Some were courageous, some were criminals, some tried to help as many people as they could, but they are gone, the people they helped are gone, the people they oppressed are gone, nothing is left. One day you'll be exactly like these people. I mean when the sun will turn into a red giant, the Earth will be vaporized, not even Shakespeare will be remembered and there won't anything left for even alien archeologists to analyse. So if you think what you do now matters, you're wrong. It doesn't.
1. I disagree.
2. I'll address the fact that it matters now. Is the playing of a symphony pointless since once it's over, it's over? Why play it at all?
1 Ok.
2. Not comparable. There's the memory.
If you want to make a comparison think of the people who spent all night drinking and can't remember any of it. THAT'S POINTLESS. Somehow, I doubt you'll disagree on that one.
Ever hear of "waiting for Godot."? Two homeless persons talk on a variety of subjects while waiting for someone named godot who never comes. That's the whole thing right there. We're just a bunch of drifters, waiting for someone named "Godot."
If you want to make a comparison think of the people who spent all night drinking and can't remember any of it. THAT'S POINTLESS. Somehow, I doubt you'll disagree on that one.
Ever hear of "waiting for Godot."? Two homeless persons talk on a variety of subjects while waiting for someone named godot who never comes. That's the whole thing right there. We're just a bunch of drifters, waiting for someone named "Godot."
I agree that spending all night drinking and not remembering it is pointless.
You bring up a good point about memory, though. Our personalities are arguably the amalgamation (?) of our memories. So doesn't it "matter" to us what we do and what we've done (for good and bad)?
As for Didi and Gogo, why converse at all in the present? If it doesn't matter right now?
