demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 20:11:20 GMT
I don't think you understand who this thread's audience is, nor my goal in starting it. Regardless of the audience, saying that organized violence wasn't part of fascism from the beginning is incorrect. You should be concerned about becoming Hungary or Poland circa 2015-2023.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 18, 2024 20:19:05 GMT
The fact that there are no signs means that it is obviously going to occur! That’s the trick! But I have pointed out reasonable signs. Are you saying you disagree his demonization of the media? The demonization of minorities? The others I mentioned? Or that you don't see those as stepping stones to Fascism? Freon The seemingly little known fact is that fascism is a part of nearly every western system. And certainly it’s a part of the Republican and Democrat agenda. In different ways sometimes, sure. So the question is whether either party is taking us or wishes to take us more towards the Nazis. And choosing the terrible evil behaviors that the original Nazis performed as the gauge. For instance, we don’t put “hated the press!” on the list of reasons that the Nazis stand out as particularly evil. And ignoring that one can hate the present iteration of particular media companies, particularly when they are so brazenly in support of one political party over the other, without being a Nazi is itself more dangerous than just hating the present iteration of particular media companies. What you would rather do is give a political party complete autonomy to usurp press agencies and if the other party shows concern over that, then they must be Nazis. But nobody is watching those press agencies anymore. People are just turning them off. Yet you still act as if criticism of these obviously partisan organizations is tantamount to Naziism. |
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Post by Monster Man on Nov 18, 2024 20:45:47 GMT
Biden has not demonized the media. Sure. Keep your head in the sand, its safer down there for you. You might have to see scary truths out here in the real world contradicting your fantasy delusions. "What a stupid son of a bitch" |
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 21:05:29 GMT
I don't think you understand who this thread's audience is, nor my goal in starting it. Regardless of the audience, saying that organized violence wasn't part of fascism from the beginning is incorrect. You should be concerned about becoming Hungary or Poland circa 2015-2023.
I AM concerned. But MY concern is not the goal of this thread. And those who should be, are extremely Karen, and must be approached in a more indirect fashion. You're not helping. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 21:09:14 GMT
But I have pointed out reasonable signs. Are you saying you disagree his demonization of the media? The demonization of minorities? The others I mentioned? Or that you don't see those as stepping stones to Fascism? Freon The seemingly little known fact is that fascism is a part of nearly every western system. And certainly it’s a part of the Republican and Democrat agenda. In different ways sometimes, sure. So the question is whether either party is taking us or wishes to take us more towards the Nazis. And choosing the terrible evil behaviors that the original Nazis performed as the gauge. For instance, we don’t put “hated the press!” on the list of reasons that the Nazis stand out as particularly evil. And ignoring that one can hate the present iteration of particular media companies, particularly when they are so brazenly in support of one political party over the other, without being a Nazi is itself more dangerous than just hating the present iteration of particular media companies. What you would rather do is give a political party complete autonomy to usurp press agencies and if the other party shows concern over that, then they must be Nazis. But nobody is watching those press agencies anymore. People are just turning them off. Yet you still act as if criticism of these obviously partisan organizations is tantamount to Naziism. There is so much error in your post, it would literally take a full other thread to break it down. But you've enlightened me on how someone like you thinks and justifies, and that was partially the point of this thread, so thank you. Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 21:09:45 GMT
I AM concerned. But MY concern is not the goal of this thread. And those who should be, are extremely Karen, and must be approached in a more indirect fashion. You're not helping. Freon Inaccuracy and misunderstanding aren't helpful. And I worry that you don't understand fascism enough to do whatever it is you're attempting to do.
Kinda like the people who meant the last year harping on this issue in various forms of media.
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 21:11:15 GMT
I AM concerned. But MY concern is not the goal of this thread. And those who should be, are extremely Karen, and must be approached in a more indirect fashion. You're not helping. Freon Inaccuracy and misunderstanding aren't helpful. And I worry that you don't understand fascism enough to do whatever it is you're attempting to do. You can say that about just ME? In HERE? lol. Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 21:24:47 GMT
You can say that about just ME? In HERE? lol. Freon Yes, I am saying that about you on this particular issue.
For example, you wrote: "It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions."
That happened in Poland from 2015-2023, but Poland wasn't a fascist state. From Anna Grzymala-Busse's Poland’s Path to Illiberalism: "Since the 2015 victory of the right-wing Law and Justice Party (PiS) in an election in which it won 38 percent of the vote and 52 percent of the seats in parliament, its government has systematically sought to undermine the independence of the judiciary, the media, civil society, local government, and election laws." ( Source)
We still have a ways to go before this though. While Republicans control Congress and the Presidency right now, that could change in 2 years in the House. However, when reapportionment occurs in 2030, the Democrats could have a problem if they haven't remedied their problems in places like Texas:
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 18, 2024 21:31:25 GMT
The seemingly little known fact is that fascism is a part of nearly every western system. And certainly it’s a part of the Republican and Democrat agenda. In different ways sometimes, sure. So the question is whether either party is taking us or wishes to take us more towards the Nazis. And choosing the terrible evil behaviors that the original Nazis performed as the gauge. For instance, we don’t put “hated the press!” on the list of reasons that the Nazis stand out as particularly evil. And ignoring that one can hate the present iteration of particular media companies, particularly when they are so brazenly in support of one political party over the other, without being a Nazi is itself more dangerous than just hating the present iteration of particular media companies. What you would rather do is give a political party complete autonomy to usurp press agencies and if the other party shows concern over that, then they must be Nazis. But nobody is watching those press agencies anymore. People are just turning them off. Yet you still act as if criticism of these obviously partisan organizations is tantamount to Naziism. There is so much error in your post, it would literally take a full other thread to break it down. But you've enlightened me on how someone like you thinks and justifies, and that was partially the point of this thread, so thank you. Freon What a wonderful way to not make an argument while transparently and childishly attempting to appear aloof and in control. I will add that to my repertoire of mirror-tactics that make me laugh. |
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 22:15:04 GMT
You can say that about just ME? In HERE? lol. Freon Yes, I am saying that about you on this particular issue.
For example, you wrote: "It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions."
That happened in Poland from 2015-2023, but Poland wasn't a fascist state. From Anna Grzymala-Busse's Poland’s Path to Illiberalism: "Since the 2015 victory of the right-wing Law and Justice Party (PiS) in an election in which it won 38 percent of the vote and 52 percent of the seats in parliament, its government has systematically sought to undermine the independence of the judiciary, the media, civil society, local government, and election laws." ( Source)
We still have a ways to go before this though. While Republicans control Congress and the Presidency right now, that could change in 2 years in the House. However, when reapportionment occurs in 2030, the Democrats could have a problem if they haven't remedied their problems in places like Texas:
And what about all the other Fascist takeovers in history. Does your criticism of my statements apply to all of that, as well? Freon |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 22:15:52 GMT
There is so much error in your post, it would literally take a full other thread to break it down. But you've enlightened me on how someone like you thinks and justifies, and that was partially the point of this thread, so thank you. Freon What a wonderful way to not make an argument while transparently and childishly attempting to appear aloof and in control. I will add that to my repertoire of mirror-tactics that make me laugh. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, I hear... Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 22:25:28 GMT
And what about all the other Fascist takeovers in history. Does your criticism of my statements apply to all of that, as well? Freon Any examples you want to point to specifically?
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Post by HolyMoly on Nov 18, 2024 23:00:28 GMT
The big cheeses of fascism had guts. Donny is a gutless wonder.
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Post by freonbale on Nov 19, 2024 0:27:11 GMT
And what about all the other Fascist takeovers in history. Does your criticism of my statements apply to all of that, as well? Freon Any examples you want to point to specifically?
You're the history buff, not I. Does Fascism ALWAYS start with that political violence? Freon |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 19, 2024 14:53:39 GMT
You're the history buff, not I. Does Fascism ALWAYS start with that political violence? Freon There have only been 2 successful fascist takeovers in history: Italy and Germany.
And yes, fascism - even the unsuccessful parties - used violence from the beginning. That organized violence is a key element of fascism.
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Post by freonbale on Nov 19, 2024 15:23:40 GMT
You're the history buff, not I. Does Fascism ALWAYS start with that political violence? Freon There have only been 2 successful fascist takeovers in history: Italy and Germany.
And yes, fascism - even the unsuccessful parties - used violence from the beginning. That organized violence is a key element of fascism.
That is mildly comforting. But tempered against having too few data points to form a believable trend. Freon |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 19, 2024 15:25:28 GMT
You're the history buff, not I. Does Fascism ALWAYS start with that political violence? Freon There have only been 2 successful fascist takeovers in history: Italy and Germany.
And yes, fascism - even the unsuccessful parties - used violence from the beginning. That organized violence is a key element of fascism.
Spain? |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 19, 2024 15:44:15 GMT
There are a lot of arguments about Spain and whether or not Franco's Spain was fascist. The Falangists started out as a fascist party, but were never able to convert Franco's regime to fascism it seems. Instead, he was just an authoritarian dictator. That appears to be the general view regarding Spain; e.g. Fascism in Spain (this looks like a really good book; also came across Walter Laqueur's Fascism: Past, Present and Future which looks interesting).
Even so, the Falangists were violent from the beginning.
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Post by Fiddler on Nov 19, 2024 15:48:02 GMT
You're the history buff, not I. Does Fascism ALWAYS start with that political violence? Freon That organized violence is a key element of fascism.
Would you say that the MAGA organized violence on Jan. 6th applies?
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 19, 2024 15:48:29 GMT
That is mildly comforting. But tempered against having too few data points to form a believable trend. Freon There were several fascists movements. Just not all of them were successful. |
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