freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 16:50:51 GMT
The core concern for anti-Trumpers is NOT about policy, but about Fascism. It is about too much control in a single person, the president, with limited to no checks and balances with the other branches of government. It is about corruption, and the erosion of our Democracy.
Fascism is not a switch that suddenly gets flipped. That's not how it started in Nazi Germany. It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions. And all with the promise of prosperity, and the celebration of 'purity' of the German national. What I see is the exact same groundwork being laid here.
And so the next step of Fascism to be watched for are the promises of prosperity not being met, but the blame going to those same groups being demonized. The view that if 'the Dems' didn't get in the way, all the prosperity would have happened. And we already see this with stu, for instance, demonizing all the Dems, repeating the propaganda that blames all problems on them.
Now maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe all the prosperity he promised, he is able to deliver, but most professionals in economics think he's about to screw us all over. And my question is, will you far righties continue buying into his BS and blame everyone BUT him?
Freon
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Post by Monster Man on Nov 18, 2024 17:02:54 GMT
LOL, its too late. Hitler was elected. Democracy is over.
Yet you keep fear-mongering as if the election has yet to happen.
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 17:08:45 GMT
Fascism is not a switch that suddenly gets flipped. That's not how it started in Nazi Germany. It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions. And all with the promise of prosperity, and the celebration of 'purity' of the German national. What I see is the exact same groundwork being laid here. You're leaving out a critical component here: organized political violence. Why?
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 18, 2024 17:09:25 GMT
LOL, its too late. Hitler was elected. Democracy is over. Yet you keep fear-mongering as if the election has yet to happen. They can’t stop warning people, but it’s already here. New Hitler is going to take power, and the current president is warmly welcoming him back. They need to just shut up and do something, because we’re on the clock until the Nazis control everything. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 17:09:25 GMT
LOL, its too late. Hitler was elected. Democracy is over. Yet you keep fear-mongering as if the election has yet to happen. Biden welcomed Hitler into the White House and said he would help him with the transition.
Mika and Joe just had a lovely conversation with Hitler.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 18, 2024 17:09:51 GMT
LOL, its too late. Hitler was elected. Democracy is over. Yet you keep fear-mongering as if the election has yet to happen. Biden welcomed Hitler into the White House and said he would help him with the transition.
Mika and Joe just had a lovely conversation with Hitler.
Beat you to it! |
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Post by Monster Man on Nov 18, 2024 17:19:22 GMT
LOL, its too late. Hitler was elected. Democracy is over. Yet you keep fear-mongering as if the election has yet to happen. Biden welcomed Hitler into the White House and said he would help him with the transition.
Mika and Joe just had a lovely conversation with Hitler.
Its crazy. You have NFL players doing the Hitler dance to celebrate touchdowns too. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Nov 18, 2024 17:25:25 GMT
The core concern for anti-Trumpers is NOT about policy, but about Fascism. It is about too much control in a single person, the president, with limited to no checks and balances with the other branches of government. It is about corruption, and the erosion of our Democracy. Fascism is not a switch that suddenly gets flipped. That's not how it started in Nazi Germany. It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions. And all with the promise of prosperity, and the celebration of 'purity' of the German national. What I see is the exact same groundwork being laid here. And so the next step of Fascism to be watched for are the promises of prosperity not being met, but the blame going to those same groups being demonized. The view that if 'the Dems' didn't get in the way, all the prosperity would have happened. And we already see this with stu, for instance, demonizing all the Dems, repeating the propaganda that blames all problems on them. Now maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe all the prosperity he promised, he is able to deliver, but most professionals in economics think he's about to screw us all over. And my question is, will you far righties continue buying into his BS and blame everyone BUT him? Freon Poor Freon He keeps drinking the kool aid fed to him by his masters. Heck it seems even half the dems have and are now admitting labeling trump a fascist a nazi etc as their sole campaign strategy - instead of actually working and being able to run on results - was a major mistake |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 18:30:17 GMT
Fascism is not a switch that suddenly gets flipped. That's not how it started in Nazi Germany. It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions. And all with the promise of prosperity, and the celebration of 'purity' of the German national. What I see is the exact same groundwork being laid here. You're leaving out a critical component here: organized political violence. Why?
Because that didn't happen at the very beginning. My argument is that fascism starts out WITHOUT the obvious signs. Freon |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 18:34:25 GMT
The core concern for anti-Trumpers is NOT about policy, but about Fascism. It is about too much control in a single person, the president, with limited to no checks and balances with the other branches of government. It is about corruption, and the erosion of our Democracy. Fascism is not a switch that suddenly gets flipped. That's not how it started in Nazi Germany. It happened in stages, starting with the demonization of the free media, the view of immigrants and minorities as the enemy, the erosion of the justice system, the deconstruction of government institutions. And all with the promise of prosperity, and the celebration of 'purity' of the German national. What I see is the exact same groundwork being laid here. And so the next step of Fascism to be watched for are the promises of prosperity not being met, but the blame going to those same groups being demonized. The view that if 'the Dems' didn't get in the way, all the prosperity would have happened. And we already see this with stu, for instance, demonizing all the Dems, repeating the propaganda that blames all problems on them. Now maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe all the prosperity he promised, he is able to deliver, but most professionals in economics think he's about to screw us all over. And my question is, will you far righties continue buying into his BS and blame everyone BUT him? Freon Poor Freon He keeps drinking the kool aid fed to him by his masters. Heck it seems even half the dems have and are now admitting labeling trump a fascist a nazi etc as their sole campaign strategy - instead of actually working and being able to run on results - was a major mistake I am not calling Donald a Nazi. I'm saying that he is introducing fascism into our Democracy in a way you find palatable. And I'm wondering when you will see it for what it is, seeing as you do not see it that way now. At what point will you realize that you are NOT getting what you asked for, but instead something very different. And given that YOU were the one who began this whole process, and given you are completely unwilling to accept any blame for anything, how strong is your pride vs seeing reality for what it is. Freon |
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 18, 2024 18:39:46 GMT
You're leaving out a critical component here: organized political violence. Why?
Because that didn't happen at the very beginning. My argument is that fascism starts out WITHOUT the obvious signs. Freon Good golly, they've invented something new to accuse Trump of: Invisible Fascism! |
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 18, 2024 18:45:08 GMT
Poor Freon He keeps drinking the kool aid fed to him by his masters. Heck it seems even half the dems have and are now admitting labeling trump a fascist a nazi etc as their sole campaign strategy - instead of actually working and being able to run on results - was a major mistake I am not calling Donald a Nazi. I'm saying that he is introducing fascism into our Democracy in a way you find palatable. And I'm wondering when you will see it for what it is, seeing as you do not see it that way now. At what point will you realize that you are NOT getting what you asked for, but instead something very different. And given that YOU were the one who began this whole process, and given you are completely unwilling to accept any blame for anything, how strong is your pride vs seeing reality for what it is. Freon So, Biden failed to deliver on his promises and blamed Trump and his supporters, even calling us "garbage". By your definition, Biden is a Nazi, a fascist taking us to the next step.
You've learned nothing from your embarrassingly bad predictions on the election outcome, have you?
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 18:47:15 GMT
Because that didn't happen at the very beginning. My argument is that fascism starts out WITHOUT the obvious signs. Freon What? Organized political violence was absolutely part of fascism from the beginning.
The March on Rome? The Beer Hall putsch? Both Italian fascism and the Nazis had paramilitary arms from the beginning.
From Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism:
"Glad for an excuse to attack their old pacifist enemies, fascist squadre invaded the city hall in Bologna, where socialist officials had hung up a red banner, on November 21, 1920. Six were killed. From there, the movement quickly spread throughout the rich agricultural country in the lower Po River delta. Black-shirted squadristi mounted nightly expeditions to sack and burn Labor Exchanges and local socialist offices, and beat and intimidate socialist organizers." (p. 74) [Note this was prior to the March on Rome]
"Violence—selective violence against 'antinational' enemies who were perceived by many Germans as outside the fold—helped win the votes that allowed Hitler to pretend that he was working for power by legal means." (p. 80)
"Mussolini had played a weaker hand in his negotiations for power, and it had rested more than Hitler’s on overt violence. We often forget that Mussolinian Fascism was more violent than Nazism on its way to power. On May 5, 1921, alone, election day, 19 people were killed in political violence in Italy and 104 wounded.15 Though the statistics are unreliable, plausible estimates of the dead in political violence in Italy during 1920–22 include five to six hundred Fascists and two thousand anti-Fascists and non-Fascists, followed by another one thousand of the latter in 1923–26." (p. 108)
Violence was also part of failed fascist movements in France and Britain.
When fascism emerged, there weren't obvious signs, because it was new and grew out of the conditions in the early 20th Century, particularly WW1. But we know what fascism looks like now; there are obvious signs ( something you previously argued).
If your critique of the US and gathering fascism is going to continue, you're going to need to seriously brush up on actual fascism. Paxton's book is a good place to start.
See also Paul M. Hayes Fascism, Richard Evans' The Coming of the Third Reich and The Third Reich in Power, Pierre Aycoberry's Social History of the Third Reich, and S. William Halperin's Mussolini and Italian Fascism.
There's more stuff out there, but those are just things that I own and/or have read online.
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 18, 2024 18:47:55 GMT
I am not calling Donald a Nazi. But you did before. |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 18, 2024 18:50:56 GMT
You're leaving out a critical component here: organized political violence. Why?
Because that didn't happen at the very beginning. My argument is that fascism starts out WITHOUT the obvious signs. Freon The fact that there are no signs means that it is obviously going to occur! That’s the trick! |
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Post by Ducksfan on Nov 18, 2024 19:38:41 GMT
I was afraid something was wrong with Freon as we hadn't gotten a Fascism update lately. I can rest easy, all is well with our friend.. Will check back tomorrow for follow-up  |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 19:55:50 GMT
I am not calling Donald a Nazi. I'm saying that he is introducing fascism into our Democracy in a way you find palatable. And I'm wondering when you will see it for what it is, seeing as you do not see it that way now. At what point will you realize that you are NOT getting what you asked for, but instead something very different. And given that YOU were the one who began this whole process, and given you are completely unwilling to accept any blame for anything, how strong is your pride vs seeing reality for what it is. Freon So, Biden failed to deliver on his promises and blamed Trump and his supporters, even calling us "garbage". By your definition, Biden is a Nazi, a fascist taking us to the next step.
You've learned nothing from your embarrassingly bad predictions on the election outcome, have you?
Biden has not demonized the media. Has not demonized minorities. Has not dismantled institutions or threatened to do so. Has not does anything that would suggest fascism. Donald has. And your response to that is not to acknowledge that fascist stepping stones are reasonably occurring, but instead to complain that the other guy made you feel bad. So what WOULD be an indicator of fascism to someone like you? And don't respond, 'what the other side is doing'. You must be clear on what fascism is, which I don't think you actually are. Freon |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 19:57:40 GMT
I am not calling Donald a Nazi. But you did before. Yes. My view is different now. Freon |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 19:58:49 GMT
Because that didn't happen at the very beginning. My argument is that fascism starts out WITHOUT the obvious signs. Freon What? Organized political violence was absolutely part of fascism from the beginning.
The March on Rome? The Beer Hall putsch? Both Italian fascism and the Nazis had paramilitary arms from the beginning.
From Robert Paxton's Anatomy of Fascism:
"Glad for an excuse to attack their old pacifist enemies, fascist squadre invaded the city hall in Bologna, where socialist officials had hung up a red banner, on November 21, 1920. Six were killed. From there, the movement quickly spread throughout the rich agricultural country in the lower Po River delta. Black-shirted squadristi mounted nightly expeditions to sack and burn Labor Exchanges and local socialist offices, and beat and intimidate socialist organizers." (p. 74) [Note this was prior to the March on Rome]
"Violence—selective violence against 'antinational' enemies who were perceived by many Germans as outside the fold—helped win the votes that allowed Hitler to pretend that he was working for power by legal means." (p. 80)
"Mussolini had played a weaker hand in his negotiations for power, and it had rested more than Hitler’s on overt violence. We often forget that Mussolinian Fascism was more violent than Nazism on its way to power. On May 5, 1921, alone, election day, 19 people were killed in political violence in Italy and 104 wounded.15 Though the statistics are unreliable, plausible estimates of the dead in political violence in Italy during 1920–22 include five to six hundred Fascists and two thousand anti-Fascists and non-Fascists, followed by another one thousand of the latter in 1923–26." (p. 108)
Violence was also part of failed fascist movements in France and Britain.
When fascism emerged, there weren't obvious signs, because it was new and grew out of the conditions in the early 20th Century, particularly WW1. But we know what fascism looks like now; there are obvious signs ( something you previously argued).
If your critique of the US and gathering fascism is going to continue, you're going to need to seriously brush up on actual fascism. Paxton's book is a good place to start.
See also Paul M. Hayes Fascism, Richard Evans' The Coming of the Third Reich and The Third Reich in Power, Pierre Aycoberry's Social History of the Third Reich, and S. William Halperin's Mussolini and Italian Fascism.
There's more stuff out there, but those are just things that I own and/or have read online.
I don't think you understand who this thread's audience is, nor my goal in starting it. What is your conclusion, then? Are you saying that we SHOULD, or SHOULD NOT, be concerned about Fascism? Freon |
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 18, 2024 20:00:22 GMT
Because that didn't happen at the very beginning. My argument is that fascism starts out WITHOUT the obvious signs. Freon The fact that there are no signs means that it is obviously going to occur! That’s the trick! But I have pointed out reasonable signs. Are you saying you disagree his demonization of the media? The demonization of minorities? The others I mentioned? Or that you don't see those as stepping stones to Fascism? Freon |
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