demos
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Post by demos on Nov 10, 2024 16:45:52 GMT
The US learned last century that isolationism hurts it. That lesson has been forgotten. Non-engagement with Europe /= isolationism.
Ask Latin America, China, and the Philippines about American "isolationism" (another word used as a cudgel with no historical understanding of U.S. actions and policy).
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 10, 2024 16:50:42 GMT
I suspect all would agree that 2016-2020 was, in terms of world peace, a much better time. For whatever the reason. Doesn't really address my point. ..and "peace"≠"absence of fighting". Absence of fighting certainly has more overlap with peace than limitless and futile fighting. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Nov 10, 2024 17:11:17 GMT
Absence of fighting is generally better than fighting. I suspect having relations - talking at least - with world authoritarians is better than ignoring what they are doing. I don’t think it’s coincidence that we saw authoritarians acting very aggressive during the Obama biden years. Then taking a break. Then acting up again during the Biden Harris years. And yet, Mr. Trump tells us - and therefore aggressors- that the US won't get involved in overseas wars, to paraphrase. So Taiwan and Ukraine are fucked. They can have an absence of fighting, & an end to their national identities & democratic ambitions. Hopefully, other allies, who understand strategic realities & the advantages to freedom & prosperity tied up in supporting freedom-seekers, will step in. The US learned last century that isolationism hurts it. That lesson has been forgotten. Taiwan can be kept free with a few SSNs or modern diesel/electric subs. The Aussie, Singaporean, South Korean & Royal Navies can probably do it, although it might make Elon & Mr. Trump grumpy. Yet, look at his term. He engaged world leaders - friends and foes - more than any president in the past decades. Putin, Kim jong etc all engaged. Look at the Biden Harris last several years. Next to no engagement with foreign leaders or adversaries. The discussion feels like the left here constantlyvstatingvtrumpnis qn authoritarian. Sure. A states rights, low tax, pro citizen gun rights, pro fee speech authoritarian He’d be the only one in world history. I suspect like many great negotiators what trump says in advance is not the same as his actions. And my suspicion is based on what we all saw between 2017-2020 |
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Post by limey² on Nov 10, 2024 21:41:30 GMT
The US learned last century that isolationism hurts it. That lesson has been forgotten. Non-engagement with Europe /= isolationism.
Ask Latin America, China, and the Philippines about American "isolationism" (another word used as a cudgel with no historical understanding of U.S. actions and policy).
Japanese (and German and Soviet and Italian) aggression in the 1930s was enabled by, amongst other things, US disinterest in foreign policy in general & support for democracies/opposition to autocracies in particular. There are, I suapect, about to be very striking parallels. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 10, 2024 21:44:18 GMT
Doesn't really address my point. ..and "peace"≠"absence of fighting". Absence of fighting certainly has more overlap with peace than limitless and futile fighting. A banal truism. Peace sometimes requires some fighting in order to establish it. Not all fighting establishes peace. Peace between Ukraine (& other neighbours/near neighbours) of Russia won't come about through acquiecence to Russian aggression, as you know perfectly well. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 10, 2024 21:47:52 GMT
And yet, Mr. Trump tells us - and therefore aggressors- that the US won't get involved in overseas wars, to paraphrase. So Taiwan and Ukraine are fucked. They can have an absence of fighting, & an end to their national identities & democratic ambitions. Hopefully, other allies, who understand strategic realities & the advantages to freedom & prosperity tied up in supporting freedom-seekers, will step in. The US learned last century that isolationism hurts it. That lesson has been forgotten. Taiwan can be kept free with a few SSNs or modern diesel/electric subs. The Aussie, Singaporean, South Korean & Royal Navies can probably do it, although it might make Elon & Mr. Trump grumpy. Yet, look at his term. He engaged world leaders - friends and foes - more than any president in the past decades. Putin, Kim jong etc all engaged. Look at the Biden Harris last several years. Next to no engagement with foreign leaders or adversaries. The discussion feels like the left here constantlyvstatingvtrumpnis qn authoritarian. Sure. A states rights, low tax, pro citizen gun rights, pro fee speech authoritarian He’d be the only one in world history. I suspect like many great negotiators what trump says in advance is not the same as his actions. And my suspicion is based on what we all saw between 2017-2020 We'll see. Remember, in a couple of years, these conversations. My Ukranian friends are deeply concerned. They don't like the idea of rewarding Russian crimes by giving Russia some of Ukraine & stepping back from treating Russian crime as crime. Neither did you, a few months ago, Pete. |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 10, 2024 22:10:57 GMT
Absence of fighting certainly has more overlap with peace than limitless and futile fighting. A banal truism. Peace sometimes requires some fighting in order to establish it. Not all fighting establishes peace. Peace between Ukraine (& other neighbours/near neighbours) of Russia won't come about through acquiecence to Russian aggression, as you know perfectly well. I think there’s a deal that could be struck, that could have been struck long ago. A deal that causes very little harm to actual citizens. Only harm to the pride and ambitions of certain political figures and arms manufacturers and globalists. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 10, 2024 23:29:13 GMT
A banal truism. Peace sometimes requires some fighting in order to establish it. Not all fighting establishes peace. Peace between Ukraine (& other neighbours/near neighbours) of Russia won't come about through acquiecence to Russian aggression, as you know perfectly well. I think there’s a deal that could be struck, that could have been struck long ago. A deal that causes very little harm to actual citizens. Only harm to the pride and ambitions of certain political figures and arms manufacturers and globalists. No Rusdian citizens would be harmed by a deal which put Ukraine's borders out of bounds to Russian forces. Lots of Ukranian citizens would be harmed by an occupation force from an overtly hostile state. Those are kinda the options. Yhat's why they're fighting the invasion. As would you in similar circumstances. |
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petep
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Post by petep on Nov 10, 2024 23:32:51 GMT
I think there’s a deal that could be struck, that could have been struck long ago. A deal that causes very little harm to actual citizens. Only harm to the pride and ambitions of certain political figures and arms manufacturers and globalists. No Rusdian citizens would be harmed by a deal which put Ukraine's borders out of bounds to Russian forces. Lots of Ukranian citizens would be harmed by an occupation force from an overtly hostile state. Those are kinda the options. Yhat's why they're fighting the invasion. As would you in similar circumstances. The sad fact is, if the west wanted to stop the former Soviet and now Russian authoritarian they could have crushed him like a bug and it never would have come to the Ukrainian country being demolished. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 11, 2024 9:08:49 GMT
No Rusdian citizens would be harmed by a deal which put Ukraine's borders out of bounds to Russian forces. Lots of Ukranian citizens would be harmed by an occupation force from an overtly hostile state. Those are kinda the options. Yhat's why they're fighting the invasion. As would you in similar circumstances. The sad fact is, if the west wanted to stop the former Soviet and now Russian authoritarian they could have crushed him like a bug and it never would have come to the Ukrainian country being demolished. True. Now's the time. |
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petep
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Posts: 25,957
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Post by petep on Nov 11, 2024 9:18:27 GMT
Yet, look at his term. He engaged world leaders - friends and foes - more than any president in the past decades. Putin, Kim jong etc all engaged. Look at the Biden Harris last several years. Next to no engagement with foreign leaders or adversaries. The discussion feels like the left here constantlyvstatingvtrumpnis qn authoritarian. Sure. A states rights, low tax, pro citizen gun rights, pro fee speech authoritarian He’d be the only one in world history. I suspect like many great negotiators what trump says in advance is not the same as his actions. And my suspicion is based on what we all saw between 2017-2020 We'll see. Remember, in a couple of years, these conversations. My Ukranian friends are deeply concerned. They don't like the idea of rewarding Russian crimes by giving Russia some of Ukraine & stepping back from treating Russian crime as crime. Neither did you, a few months ago, Pete. I don’t believe Putin ever would have launched his full scale attack under trump. But he did under Biden Harris. I still feel he needs to feel the pain for his actions for a very long time. And I suspect that will mean the Russian people will feel the pain too. I’d follow a post WWII model, Germany and Japan. I’ve never once advocated for giving Putin what he wants. I hope trump does what he did in his first term, and steers things back to peace. However he can do that. And at the same time Russia learns a painful lesson |
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Post by limey² on Nov 11, 2024 17:58:41 GMT
We'll see. Remember, in a couple of years, these conversations. My Ukranian friends are deeply concerned. They don't like the idea of rewarding Russian crimes by giving Russia some of Ukraine & stepping back from treating Russian crime as crime. Neither did you, a few months ago, Pete. I don’t believe Putin ever would have launched his full scale attack under trump. But he did under Biden Harris. I still feel he needs to feel the pain for his actions for a very long time. And I suspect that will mean the Russian people will feel the pain too. I’d follow a post WWII model, Germany and Japan. I’ve never once advocated for giving Putin what he wants. I hope trump does what he did in his first term, and steers things back to peace. However he can do that. And at the same time Russia learns a painful lesson Well, if he supports Ukraine to regain its pre-invasion borders (i.e. the Crimean invasion) and lends US weight to enforcing reparations, investigation of war crimes*, and opening the door for Ukraine's future security guarantees under NATO, I'll take my hat off to him & say so right here. *by whoever |
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 11, 2024 18:05:33 GMT
Non-engagement with Europe /= isolationism.
Ask Latin America, China, and the Philippines about American "isolationism" (another word used as a cudgel with no historical understanding of U.S. actions and policy).
Japanese (and German and Soviet and Italian) aggression in the 1930s was enabled by, amongst other things, US disinterest in foreign policy in general & support for democracies/opposition to autocracies in particular. There are, I suapect, about to be very striking parallels. Every conflict is compared to WWII, and every belligerent foreign leader compared to Hitler. And so we have failed or ruined states all over the globe, in effort to stop New Hitler. Slaughters in countries everywhere, but the lesson continues to be to prevent the next definitive Hitler. There have been other wars. Other lessons to learn. But it’s always Hitler. |
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Post by queshank on Nov 11, 2024 18:06:43 GMT
I don’t believe Putin ever would have launched his full scale attack under trump. But he did under Biden Harris. I still feel he needs to feel the pain for his actions for a very long time. And I suspect that will mean the Russian people will feel the pain too. I’d follow a post WWII model, Germany and Japan. I’ve never once advocated for giving Putin what he wants. I hope trump does what he did in his first term, and steers things back to peace. However he can do that. And at the same time Russia learns a painful lesson Well, if he supports Ukraine to regain its pre-invasion borders (i.e. the Crimean invasion) and lends US weight to enforcing reparations, investigation of war crimes*, and opening the door for Ukraine's future security guarantees under NATO, I'll take my hat off to him & say so right here. *by whoever
I may be wrong.
But I don't think he's going to continue to support the slaughter of Ukrainians to bolster the profit margins of Western oil companies and the ROI's of America's wealthy citizens.
Queshank
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Post by rabbitreborn on Nov 11, 2024 18:07:21 GMT
I don’t believe Putin ever would have launched his full scale attack under trump. But he did under Biden Harris. I still feel he needs to feel the pain for his actions for a very long time. And I suspect that will mean the Russian people will feel the pain too. I’d follow a post WWII model, Germany and Japan. I’ve never once advocated for giving Putin what he wants. I hope trump does what he did in his first term, and steers things back to peace. However he can do that. And at the same time Russia learns a painful lesson Well, if he supports Ukraine to regain its pre-invasion borders (i.e. the Crimean invasion) and lends US weight to enforcing reparations, investigation of war crimes*, and opening the door for Ukraine's future security guarantees under NATO, I'll take my hat off to him & say so right here. *by whoever Delusional. This is bizarre fantasy. This is demanding WWIII, to bring unwanted Western salvation to parts of the world that don’t want your dream of the future. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 11, 2024 18:08:39 GMT
Japanese (and German and Soviet and Italian) aggression in the 1930s was enabled by, amongst other things, US disinterest in foreign policy in general & support for democracies/opposition to autocracies in particular. There are, I suapect, about to be very striking parallels. This is just a caricature of US policy.
The U.S. was trying to avoid war; that's true, but the U.S. was not isolationist. For example: "The United States sat in on League of Nations council meetings for the first time to try to convince the League to enforce the Kellogg-Briand Pact, which both Japan and China had signed." ( Source)
Strange thing for an isolationist country to do wouldn't you say?
Then from 1940 to 1941, FDR extended Lend-Lease to China, instituted an embargo on Japan, and froze assets. Again, strange things for an isolationist state to do.
Btw, what was Britain doing in the Pacific? Oh.
Were y'all isolationist as well?
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petep
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Posts: 25,957
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Post by petep on Nov 11, 2024 18:51:07 GMT
I don’t believe Putin ever would have launched his full scale attack under trump. But he did under Biden Harris. I still feel he needs to feel the pain for his actions for a very long time. And I suspect that will mean the Russian people will feel the pain too. I’d follow a post WWII model, Germany and Japan. I’ve never once advocated for giving Putin what he wants. I hope trump does what he did in his first term, and steers things back to peace. However he can do that. And at the same time Russia learns a painful lesson Well, if he supports Ukraine to regain its pre-invasion borders (i.e. the Crimean invasion) and lends US weight to enforcing reparations, investigation of war crimes*, and opening the door for Ukraine's future security guarantees under NATO, I'll take my hat off to him & say so right here. *by whoever I suppose it will come down to what is in our interests. I’d love to see what you outlined happen. But how far do we push it. The last few years have seen China and Iran and North Korea massively emboldened and lining up with Russia. Ultimately Russia must be squeezed to a point where cooperation and being good is a better path for them. But a return to their socialist ussr ways is not positive. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 11, 2024 19:03:47 GMT
Japanese (and German and Soviet and Italian) aggression in the 1930s was enabled by, amongst other things, US disinterest in foreign policy in general & support for democracies/opposition to autocracies in particular. There are, I suapect, about to be very striking parallels. Every conflict is compared to WWII, and every belligerent foreign leader compared to Hitler. And so we have failed or ruined states all over the globe, in effort to stop New Hitler. Slaughters in countries everywhere, but the lesson continues to be to prevent the next definitive Hitler. There have been other wars. Other lessons to learn. But it’s always Hitler. Nah, not "stop Hitler". Putin's his own kind of cünt, with striking Adolf parallels, but Adolf he ain't. The issue here isn't Putin's personality or political stance, it's his criminal invasion of a peaceful neighbouring soveriegn State. Focus, man. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 11, 2024 19:06:43 GMT
Well, if he supports Ukraine to regain its pre-invasion borders (i.e. the Crimean invasion) and lends US weight to enforcing reparations, investigation of war crimes*, and opening the door for Ukraine's future security guarantees under NATO, I'll take my hat off to him & say so right here. *by whoever
I may be wrong.
But I don't think he's going to continue to support the slaughter of Ukrainians to bolster the profit margins of Western oil companies and the ROI's of America's wealthy citizens.
Queshank
No, Ukranians (& Russians, and others) are dying in a conflict over the criminal invasion of Ukraine. Cynicism is a fun dress-up, but if you wear it all the time it looks silly. |
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Post by limey² on Nov 11, 2024 19:09:02 GMT
Well, if he supports Ukraine to regain its pre-invasion borders (i.e. the Crimean invasion) and lends US weight to enforcing reparations, investigation of war crimes*, and opening the door for Ukraine's future security guarantees under NATO, I'll take my hat off to him & say so right here. *by whoever Delusional. This is bizarre fantasy. This is demanding WWIII, to bring unwanted Western salvation to parts of the world that don’t want your dream of the future. God, you're hot. I can visualise you saying those words through lips painted with that e.l.f. black plum glaze I got you for our 6 month anniversary. |
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